So the one of the main features of improving skills in tes was an incredibly reasonable,logical and fitting idea:

Practicing that skill makes it better. As far as stupid gimmicks go, this was the best [censored] one. It made perfect sense. It was complex and yet so so simple. Even if it were rediculously complicated and there were 500 skills for each individual thing, It'd still make sense, because all you'd do is do what you want to do to be good at it.

Come skyrim and skills barely affect anything at all. The numerical value gets higher, but we hardly/don't get better. Instead, We'd get a single point when we level up for a part in the skill tree. This was a massive downgrade. It was Unreasonable, Illogical and a totaly unfitting idea.

1. The system is now complex, because you need to navigate a tech tree. You've got to find out what's available before you start giving out your points, and need spend for things you don't want to get things you do.

2. The system is now more unnatural, because you don't go up incrementally each level, you have these huge leaps after tens of skill levels. You'd be at 0%,0%,0%,0%,0% , 20%, 20%...

3. You'd get splits. There'd be points where you've gone up ten levels in one thing and ten in another, yet when you level up you can only choose one to improve. The other one has to wait, even when you bring it up another 10, and maybe another, because there are more pressing perks to get. Ultimately you can get a hundred in a skill and not have improved it at all.

4. You get huge points of change; Aha, I've made enough iron daggers, I guess this means I can make dwarven now? Or 'aha, i've reached this level in sneak, now anyone I poke whilst sneaking dies. Granted, we kind of had this in oblivion, and it wasn't fantastic there either, but oblivion did have the advantage of the milestone perks being certain unlocks, as opposed to things you had to buy.

How many of these threads do you plan to make? I think it would be a good idea to consolidate all of your threads (at least the ones that haven't been locked) into one giant collection of suggestions. This is beginning to look slightly spammy to me.

I feel your pain to an extent. Truly, for the sake of roleplaying on a computer, Perks is a far more immersive and sensible system, but it's just very rough-around-the-edges for the first foray. In response to your points:

1.) This is the same as reading a manual to understand what exactly "Etiquette" does for you before assigning points to it. The only difference is now, instead of manual, we can look it up in-game using a cool graphical interface.

2.) Agreed. It's neither well-balanced nor very sensible. In retrospect, however, it has completely obliterated the need to grind in almost every area of the game (Smithing being the notable exception). To alleviate this, I would have Perk points awarded every time the player increased a skill by 10, and the point would be limited to the general class of the skill concerned (Warrior, Mage, or Thief).

3.) And that is the player's prerogative! One surefire way to make an RPG horribly dull is to allow players to get everything they want quickly. The struggle to improve and make exclusive choices is where the energy of the game comes from.

4.) Agreed, again. It's just a bit clunky in its execution. The trees need work to be more sensible. Especially with crafting skills, it would be nice to have it be a bit more interactive, like actually having to time strikes while smithing. Ironically, in real life, it works more like the game. An apprentice blacksmith was often tasked with making hundreds of hobnails, spikes, or other small, basic items for years before they would be ready to attempt something as complex as a horseshoe. This is where it gets very difficult to balance "realism" with "gameplay".

The change to a perk-based skill system was made with Oblivion, Skyrim just took it further. Skills are either damage multipliers or perk gates. Morrowind was the last game where the skill actually indicated how good you were. Just pointing it out.

The main problem with Skyrim's perk system is that most of the trees were poorly thought out, which is why there are so many mods that improve them.

Giving you one perk point is quite reasonable each time you level up. How many do you want? 5? 10? By giving you one for each level it makes you think on how to spend your points. I don't get threads like this.

Perks replaced attributes and it has the exact same effect. Having 5 in strength and 70 in longblades won't do you much good either. The diffrance is you don't have to run around practicing/training skills you never intend to use to get skill gains and can just play.

This was never an argument for the old attribute system.

1. you would have to be pretty stupid to not understand how a skill tree works. the Perk system is clearly meant to be similar to the feat system that most tabletop RPG's use and that fallout uses. Fallout, the couterpart to TES has ALWAYS had feats yo ucan select at each level, with some having certain feat, skill, or attribute requirements

2. welcome to an RPG with a leveling system

3.again, you probably should not be playing an RPG

4.again, stop playing RPGs if you do not like this kind of system.

The leveling and skill tree works just fine in my opinion.

The only thing I don't like about it is that 1 point in Lockpicking counts the same as one point in One Handed, which is much more useful in combat. All skills shouldn't be treated the same for leveling purposes. I should probably hold off on leveling things like crafting early on too, but it helps get early money.

To me, the problem with Skyrim's "perk trees" is that they are not trees (well, except for Alteration ); they are anvil, shield, bow, etc. They're all different cutesy "constellations" with the perks arranged to fit a picture. Bethesda got too clever, and the result is imbalance.

The problem is that the skills trees aren't balanced. Some of them are branched, with multiple paths and lots of player choices. Others (like smithing) form a single "loop," with a linear path to the "top perk." Too many perks are hiding behind other seemingly unrelated perks. You're an archer, and you want "Deadly Aim," so you have to take "Backstab" first...Really, Beth? Since when does an Archer go around stabbing people in the back?

I'm not sure you're making much of a case for herasy, but that being said, I don't think the skill tree system is bad. I think it's a flexible way for players to concentrate on certain qualities while not being involved with others. Skyrim is my first Elder Scroll game so I can't draw any comparisons with the earlier iterations of the feature. Of course, it could be improved and I look forward to seeing it further enhanced and refined.

I'm with you. Skyrim is my first ES game as well. Even if it's different from previous games, so what? If it was the same as other games , then it wouldn't be Skyrim. It should be different from game to game in my opinion.

I agree with you but we seem to be in a minority. For whatever reason, and I don't really understand it myself, people seem to love their perks.

Someone mentioned table top games, but the granddaddy of them all, TSR's First Edition D&D had no perks or feats. It was only after Wizards of the Coast got their hands on the franchise that they added that stuff, which seems to be inspired from video games.

Someone mentioned attributes and the old system that allowed grinding to get good attribute bonuses, but there were mods that fixed that, like GCD and Realistic Leveling, that removed player choice about what attributes to pick on level up and spread the skills' contribution toward attribute increases out more to make it harder to increase a specific attribute by grinding a single skill.

I prefer a system without perks, where the character advances naturally and the only character building decisions occur in game. I don't like having to make out if game character building decisions every level cause it distracts from roleplaying the character. I think perks are unnecessary and gamey.

Having said all that, I do enjoy Skyrim with Requiem. Although, I'd prefer a no perk world, the Skyrim engine won't really support that in a satisfying way. At least mods like Requiem have made the perk system bearable for me. The vanilla perk system was really lacking in imagination.

I didn't like the perk system at first, but it's grown on me. The fact that you sometimes have to get unwanted perks on the route to the preferred one is of course quite deliberate and thought out.......it's just not what most of you want! But it ain't no accident guys.

For example, as glargg raised. If you want Deadly aim because you're an archer, you have to get back stab first ( which is not an archery skill). But you miss the point ( no pun intended). It's part of a skill SET for an assassin. So Beth wants well rounded experienced assassins in their game, not just archer assassins or one handed assassins, but both, see!

Better for us would have been to add deadly aim to the archery skill tree.......but what you all have to realise is that it's not OUR game. The IPR, and all rights belong to Bethesda, always. It's their game, not yours, and you pay the purchase price for the right to 'have a go' with it. So, the way it plays is what Bethesda want and what they want you to experience......that's not bad planning or bad balance or accidental. It's you playing their game the way they want you to........and that my friends is why they seldom change things no matter how much you all whinge. Their game, their rules, their way...or play something else.

However, I'm not complaining, just explaining

just because Beth made it that way, doesn't mean we have to like it, or even play it. The thing I like best about Beth's games is the CS/CK. without that, I doubt I'd still be playing. I enjoy modded Skyrim very much and I too have even kind of grown to like perks in a modded game.

Well yay for modders m8.....But where does that leave the other 700 million of us?

For everyone one else then my observation remains extant!

I agree Turija! Frankly, I preferred leveling in the old Morrowind system. In life, if I want to be an archer, i go buy a bow and spend years practicing with it... "grinding" if you will. If I want to get into fencing, or sprinting, or football, or bowling, it's the same thing. Invest time in practice. I also like perks, because, let's face it, some of those perks are like gaining magical abilities themselves, eh? Slow down time as an archer or with a shield block? really? cool, but not very realistic. I like cool but not very realistic though, so it works for me.

By the same token, since the days of my first experience with the MOrrowind construction set, I have not paid any attention whatsoever to any percieved notion by Behtesda of how I'm going to play "their" game, simply because once I makes some mods, add others by other people, and set things up the way I want them to be, it's NOT their game anymore as far as I'm concerned. It's whatever I choose to make it. I went so far as to create a total conversion in Morrowind once, and I thought it was great. I never released it (mostly because of permission problems), so I don't know how anybody else would have liked it... but I don't care, you see. What is important is that for my playing purposes, it's MY game. If Beth doesn't like that, well.. they never should have created a construction set.

EDIT:

Rick... Sorry, I guess the rest of you belong to Bethesda and dance to their tune, eh? I would have bought an Xbox years ago... until I discovered they cant run mods. So, I guess I never will, but that's a choice we each make for ourselves, eh?

I used to be one of you. I started with Oblivion on PS3, then got an Xbox to play Morrowind. Then played Skyrim on PS3 and Xbox for several years. Finally got so frustrated with the vanilla game I had to learn how to use a PC.

Yes, you came over to the Dark Side.