lore-wise: is the Dark Brotherhood able to refuse a contract to kill someone? Like, what if killing a particular person is not in the Dark Brotherhood's best interest, or is a member of the thieves guild or some other http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1523694-can-the-dark-brotherhood-refuse-contracts/# or ally?

Assuming the black sacrament was performed

If so, does the http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1523694-can-the-dark-brotherhood-refuse-contracts/# supplied need to be sufficient for the night mother or Sithis?

If I had to guess, I would say yes, but only if another life was taken for Sithis to replace the victim who otherwise would have been http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1523694-can-the-dark-brotherhood-refuse-contracts/#.

P.S. If this thread is unnecessary, could someone please direct me to a dark brotherhood http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1523694-can-the-dark-brotherhood-refuse-contracts/# thread? thank you.

I don't think so, their leader is a god after all, and he has some strict rules. The Dark Brotherhood is nothing but a tool for him and a tool doesn't have a right to say "no" to its user.

Well, if We're talking just Skyrim, and Astrid was running the show, she would only do what was good for business.

However, if you're old school ( like me) following the edicts of the Night Mother to appease Sithis, then you darned well better do as you're told lest you meet an unpleasant end.

Sithis is not technically a god, at least not in the sense of Aedra and Daedra. Sithis is more, primordial. Sithis has always existed and in the end there will be nothing left but Sithis. Who or what Sithis is, is not made clear. Sithis can be likened ( were told) to the pure empty void, the cold of space, midnight on a moonless night etc etc. Sithis seems to be the purest expression of complete emptiness. Even you being there to observe Sithis would be a contamination within the nothing. But is Sithis sentient? Does Sithis have needs or desires. We don't really know. Perhaps such 'human' questions hold no meaning for Sithis............

Edit....to state the obvious a bit. Sithis does not communicate anything to anyone. That is the Night Mother, who is really a vengeful spirit with head for business. She apparently sacrificed her five kids so that their spirits might meet their father (Sithis). How did a concept of 'The Void' impregnate a woman? And why? Maybe she was a bit, um, unbalanced while alive and is certainly more so now dead!

But, by Sithis, you didn't hear it from me...........

Yes, also we're assuming the DB members in question observe the five tenets as law; however, I might point out that in certain cases, the Tenets are ignored by the members if doing so is in the DB's best interest. Whether in these instances, the DB had unknowingly invoked the wrath of Sithis or not is likely a matter of debate.

***SPOILERS***

As we know from Oblivion, the Listener and the rest of the Black Hand sanctions the Purification, or the killing of all the members of the Cheydinhal Sanctuary, clearly in violation of the tenets, but only performed as a last resort to preserving the DB. We also find out later, that the listener prayed to the Night Mother nightly, but she rarely spoke to him. She said she could have told him what he needed to know to stop the traitor and prevent the killings, but didn't because the DB was weak.

***END OF SPOILERS***

Speaking of wrath, it seems entirely apparent that somehow a primordial deity described as nothingness can express thoughts and desires since, in Oblivion, the wrath of Sithis can manifest itself into a physical form. Also, notably, the night mother sacrificed her children because Sithis wanted to be with them in the void. Whether all of this is just misinterpreted by the DB or the Night Mother when she was living is also unknown. We don't really know who or what Sithis is, and neither does the Brotherhood. Good points though, makes me think, and raises other interesting topics.

I'm going to save the Night Mother and Sithis discussions for another time, as I'm not quite awake, but will answer your question as well as I can about refusing a contract.

I'd say the Night Mother does have a filter as to which potential contracts are worth taking and which are just going to be a waste of time. From there on, I'd say it comes down to if the person who invoked the Black Sacrament can afford the services of the Dark Brotherhood or not when drawing a contract with a Speaker. That part may involve part of the Night Mother's filter, though. I'd imagine this is where the Dark Brotherhood has some autonomy, as it was founded as a business and a cult. If one cannot afford the services or provide something worthwhile, no deal.

I'd also imagine that at a certain point, a contract can just be stricken as not worth it if enough assassins are killed and the original agreed upon price for the hit is no longer worth all of the brothers and sisters killed in the process. An exception would likely be if the person was extremely rich and can afford an ever increasing price for a mark that is quite strong (Helseth Hlaalu).

EDIT: also, ghoulforhire, to hide something within a spoiler, type [spoiler] **message** [/.spoiler] . Be sure to remove the period, I only added it so a spoiler would't be made

That's a good point. The Black Sacrament is a prayer made to the night mother, so I suppose the night mother has some discretion as to whether to relay the information to the listener, and the Dark Brotherhood also names their price, so in a case where the client can't pay for the assassination, the contract could be made null and void. Some interesting stuff to think about, but it's still speculation, because we don't know if refusing a contract for monetary or other purposes even after the night mother has spoken to the listener would go against the will of Sithis.

We know that the night mother can potentially withhold information from the listener at her discretion as well.

thanks for the tip about spoilers, I wasn't sure how to do that