I'm not a software engineer. The only code I know how to write is CSS, HTML, and PHP... so honestly, I don't know exactly how it all works.

I'm going to be buying FO4 on PC. So this doesn't really affect me much. I have no real stake in this conversation, but it is something I've been thinking about.

With the announcement of mods being able to be converted from PC to Xbox One, and possibly PS4, it got me to thinking about how limited the modding potential of consoles would be. Obviously, consoles will likely not be able to support high resolution textures, ENBs, and other such graphically related mods. Primarily because of performance issues, I'm sure... but also because many such mods (ENBs, for example) require file-system access. As I'm sure many people here are aware already, to install an ENB, you must have access to the game's file system. It's not as simple as dumping the files in the data folder and checking an esp (which is basically what the steam Workshop and NMM do).

Which brought me to the requirement of script extenders. Script extenders are even more difficult to use (from a console perspective), requiring you to not only have access to the file system, but also requiring you to replace the game's launcher with the script extender's.

As an example, I'll use Skyrim (duh). The most popular mod of all time for Skyrim is undeniably SkyUI. The functionality of that mod is amazing. To quote Todd Howard "it just works". Not only does it provide a much more functional UI and expanded feature set for Skyrim on PC, but it includes 100% controller support as well. To be able to create a mod like SkyUI for consoles would be fantastic. But of course, SkyUI REQUIRES SKSE to operate. So even if Skyrim had mod support on consoles currently... console players would never be able to utilize the expanded features of SkyUI, or any other mod that requires SKSE (which is quite a lot of mods).

So... the point of this thread. Do you think it would be wise or even possible for Bethesda to include the functionality of a script extender within vanilla Fallout 4? I'm honestly not even sure exactly what a script extender does. I mean, it obviously allows the game to utilize 3rd party scripts, but I don't know how exactly that works, and whether it would even be possible for Bethesda to include that kind of support for the console versions.

If not... it seems highly unlikely console players will be getting any significant gameplay-related mods, and will be stuck mostly with reskinned items and basic content additions.

I'm sure the consoles will only be able to use plugins created by the GECK for vanilla Fallout 4. I doubt that script extenders or ENBs will be possible.

While I'm happy that console users will finally get to experience mods, I do have a slight worry that many modders will decline to take advantage of things like script extenders in order to make their mods console friendly, reducing the quality of mods that are available for the PC. But, time will tell.

Then again, scripting for the new game may be far more powerful and capable of doing most of the things the script extenders enabled for past games so there may not even be a need for the extenders this time around.

It's likely they can. Given that Bethesda is looking to include mods for the console, and there will be mods that rely on FOSE, they can either include it as a separate download or integrate. I'm not an expert on the subject so, there's that :S

Well ENBs will obviously not be possible. Most ENBs already bring powerful PCs to their knees. There's no way the consoles would be able to run them and still be playable.

I also doubt modders will sacrifice PC functionality in favor of consoles. I'm sure most authors would rather create two versions, or simply skip console support if it would alter the mod too much.

That last part is what I'm getting at though. It would be nice if a FOSE isn't even needed for FO4, wouldn't it?

To answer your question: no. At the very least, not for Fallout 4. Microsoft and Sony are taking a big risk (from their perspective) by allowing gamesas to put mods on their consoles. It's a major thing- not a map edit or custom creation using a in-game thing a la Little Big Planet or Spore, but more akin to a DLC, no matter how minor. I wouldn't be surprised if I heard that more than a few execs from both companies wake up in a cold sweat over worry of how badly mods on consoles can be.

A Script Extender isn't like a mod, but a core alteration as to how the game runs. It adds in new things to what the game recognizes in its scripts, and any dev will tell you that it can go horribly, horribly wrong if you don't know what the hell you're doing. Microsoft and Sony would be terrified by some 3rd party they don't know altering a core functionality of a game on their system, especially since nobody has ever attempted to put mods on a console to the scale that gamesas is doing.

Maybe by the next Elder Scrolls or Fallout title Microsoft and Sony would be less nervious about script extenders, especially if there are little to no problems with mods on consoles. But for right now? That's a bit too much for right now.

The question isn't about whether or not FOSE could be added to FO4 on consoles, but whether or not Bethesda could design the game in a manner in which FOSE isn't a requirement at all.

If FO4 had the functionality of a script extender by default, then the issue would be moot. Most mods would work the same way they're probably going to on consoles, the only difference would be an increased range of what those mods could change within the game.

It's also likely that bethnet will be curated, which would mean the risk would be relatively low from the console manufacturer's perspective. And I'm sure there will be many disclaimers consisting of "it's not our fault if your game gets [censored] up when you install these things".

my two cents with base building, random raider attacks, rubberbanding places. FO4 most likely will not need script extenders at all unless you want 60+ mods on it

Will a script extender even be needed? Wasnt the whole point of such a thing to cover what the older engine couldnt?

They won't ever be able to. By my understanding, a script extender adds new script conditions, definitions, and commands to the game. In order to make a game that doesn't require a script extender, the scripts would have to be programmed with a virtually unlimited amount of conditions, definitions, and commands. This is simply not feasable from a dev perspective. If they're not adding in things they don't plan to use, they're wasting the company's time. Even if they weren't, there's no guarantee that a modder requires a set of conditions, definitions, or commands that they didn't think of.

I don't see how that's really relevant. The Script extender is a modder's resource that allows for extra scripting functionality. It doesn't change every time you install a new mod. It provides a set of tools for modders to use to run scripts that their mods require.

Why would it be so unrealistic for Bethesda to provide this functionality natively?

I'm not arguing that you're wrong about whether or not it will happen. But if a small group of modders can provide that functionality without needing to patch/update SKSE for every other mod that hits the NExus, why couldn't Bethesda?

Or even better, what's to stop Bethesda from officially supporting their own script extender through patches and updates?

Allright, let's try this a different way.

Think of the script language as an instruction manual. The Devs create the manual, filling it with things that they need the game to do. The game reads the instructions and stuff happens.

Now, some modders come by and think the instruction manual is too limited, or what they need the game to do isn't in the instruction manual. So they write their own instructions, and stick them in the back. That's the script extender.

In order for the game to make a script extender not required, the devs need to forsee every possible thing a modder may wish the game to do, and then code all that into the instruction manual. And therein lies the problem- the devs may not have enough time to code all that in, because they won't be using most or all of it, and the beancounters won't like them "wasting" their time on doing something they won't use. If they do have the time to do all that coding, they are still human, and a player may want the game to do something they had never thought of doing before, writing it off as "impossible" or just not thinking that a player might actually want the game to do a specific thing.

Also, note that SKSE is on Patch 1.7.2. Some of that is from bugfixes, others are new command inputs for increased functionality. They're still adding to it long after gamesas stopped supporting Skyrim.

And that implies the answer to your question as to what's stopping gamesas from making new updates. Eventually, they WILL have to move onto a new game as resources get shuffled to the new one, and whatever build they're on is the last one they'll ever do for that game, buggy as hell or not.

The answer to this is, there's always something the vanilla game's scripting capabilities won't be able to do. So while Fallout 4 might come out with every new function that FOSE provides for 3, (or more appropriately, what SKSE added to Skyrm), there will always be room for extensions.

So yeah, I doubt that we'll get script extenders on the consoles. I just hope we won't need any script extenders to make changes to the UI, or add new elements. Maybe if Bethesda's going for mods on consoles, they'll try and make the Creation Kit a bit more robust than they would otherwise.

If Bethesda would include support for functions that FOSE offers in their default modding tools then there would be no need for it.

Just making mods from the PC work on consoles is a script extender in its self. (translation)

Hence even if we get functions added later after vanilla for PC ... the script extension work is not done yet to move it to console.

I imagine what is possible on the PC (modder's pool of possibility) Will be less on the console modding just from the get go (vanilla)

But who knows , there may be things that end up being more possible for console modding , with less translation shells.

Bethesda implements in their scriptengine what they need to make the game.

Skyrim had some stuff added that originated in the OBSE/FOSE/NVSE user made extension to the scriptengine.

OBSE/FOSE/NVSE/SKSE aren't a 100% defined and set in stone set of instructions, they are findings in the engine code that are made usefull by the regarding script extender.

So simple answer no!

personally i think the oposite and that most modders will stick with the nexus , steamworkshop and others at first especially when the more advanced mods start comming out after a few months

True, its needed for moders, the game designers often add functions directly to the executable. The base building is an god example. its an integrated part.

Moders has to use scripts and often need functionality used in stock scripts.

I remember needed an function to check if an plant is harvested or not for my farm everywhere mod. SKSE had this.

Another example is text, Skyrim scripts had very few ways working with text.

Now its an chance for extra API calls just for moders, Skyrim had lots of spare equipment slots who was not used in game it was just an moder resource.

They know FOSE will be an problem for consoles so decent chance they will add extra calls too.

Not saying that FOSE will not be needed, some moders has done pretty wild stuff with it.

They would need a crystal ball, FOSE gets functions added as modders request them, they can't possibly know what modders will want beforehand, then there are FOSE plugins, they would need to second guess those too.

...if fo script extender was a part of the game, it wouldn't be a script extender, but a part of the game. making all this rather recursive in the long run.

just saying... ,-)

Probably not. I haven't seen the source code for the Script Extender.

My guess sense the game runs fine with it installed on your system...

That it replaces a DLL on your system with one with extended functionality. Turns out that bethesda's games aren't too bad code wise if you seen the Open Morrowind project. I thought it'd be very complex... but it's actually incredibly simple.

And the FOES executable injects the bytecode into the game's stream buffers.

What was so beautiful about the script extender, was that it allowed access to far more systems than the end user should actually be allowed.

There will always be new/more functions that modders come up with, so they'll make something like it anyway.

The script extenders, as I understand it, don't just let people hook new scripts to the game. They also provide additional specific functions for those scripts to be built with. As long as there's more functions that a creative modder can think of wanting, there'll be a script extender.

(This is why mods that use **SE will frequently specify a minimum version required. Because a newer version of the script extender added new features that they used in their mod.)

Well it seems appropriate to chime in here.

My hope is that a lot of functionality we provided in SKSE by way of Papyrus script extensions will be built in to the FO4 script engine. It is a pretty good bet at least some of them will be - that pattern has held true for each new release so far. However there is simply going to be a limit to what BGS will provide. In the past they have provided mostly the functions they need to get their scripts done. This makes sense from their perspective - there are support requirements with each function provided. Testing and documentation and maintenance with each new build. They are only going to take on a little beyond what they already need.

That is where we come in. There are many, many more mod builders than scripters working with BGS. Those modders will come up with a vast array of new desires for scripting capabilities. BGS can't provide for all of them, but we can help with the script extenders.

As I have mentioned before - we intend to work on a Fallout 4 Script Extender (F4SE). This is assuming that BGS' previous patterns of DRM follow through and we don't face more stringent restrictions on what we can do. We'll make F4SE available for the PC.

I highly doubt we'll be able to provide F4SE for console mods. I just can't see the consoles opening up for actual third party code to run. And even if they did that, we would likely need support and callbacks from FO4 proper to be able to do things like input control (key and button press events). It just isn't going to happen - at least for this release.