It's not that narrow under Maxson, only ghouls, supermutants and synths are excluded, and for good reason. Ordinary wastelanders are free to do their thing, or even welcome to join the Brotherhood.

Out of curiosity, what quote of Dance's are you referring to, and when does he say it (since that's kinda important, considering his personal questline). Maxson says he cares about the people word for word.

That would remove any moral ambiguity from the fact the Institute is the victim of the BoS' aggression.

And the BoS' depiction in the game is building upon what was in Fallout 3.

After Fallout 3, I wrote an essay which PREDICTED most of these changes on my blog.

The set up was Elder Lyons was going to fall and was a tragic hero rather than a destined savior--fans just ignored it.

It was about his opinion about the Minutemen, who Reminded Him Lyons' reform, and called them fools.

I can agree that all (East Coast) Supermutants should be eradicated, but Ghouls or Synths? Why? If they Don't attack You, why bother?

m one of the people that liked Lyons verson of the brotherhood too but sadly were in the minority and people complained for years about them being white knights. Probably the cause of the change but at least they can be fought against.

That just means Danse doesn't care for Lyons' views.

Also, ninety percent of ghouls are feral, and the remaining ten percent have the potential to become feral at any time. Synths at the moment are weapons and sleeper agents of the Institute, and even should the Institute be destroyed remain a threat, since they are, essentially, reprogrammable humans - anyone tech-savvy enough can reverse-engineer them to do their bidding.

Who said that 90% of Ghouls are feral? And so what that Local Ghoul might turn feral? By that same logic We should kill babies, becouse they might grown into murderers. There is not enought tech-savvy Wastelanders to make it noticable. One - you need to know that someone is a synth. Two - You must have technical know how. Three - You need that synth. The only groups capable of reprograming Synths are the Institute, BoS and Enclave (Followers of the Apocalypse maybe could pull that off too). And only the Institute could do it remotely (albeit still in ridicolusly close range). Soo... nah.

Given we never saw any Feral Ghouls in Fallout 1 and 2 while they're pretty damn rare outside of super radiation zones in the Mojave, I'd say Feral Ghouls are actually pretty rare all things considered.

The Capital Wasteland and Commonwealth seem to indicate Feral Ghouls primarily exist as a direct consequence of the Atomic Bombing.

In other words, a HUGGGGGE source of radiation.

Which the CW got because it was carpet nuked and then carpet nuked again.

Honestly, I don't think anyone survived in D.C. the nukes. Everyone there came from either the Vaults or moved there later (Anadale exempted).

Well, the game says 90% of ghouls are feral, just count how many attack you and how many you can talk to. It also usually takes special circumstances for a human to become a psychotic murderer. Ghouls? It probably just takes a small dna glitch, or it might be inevitable, who knows. I'd not want to risk it. But anyway, I haven't seen the BoS actively eliminating sentient ghouls at any point. They don't want anything to do with them, but they're not hostile either.

As far as synths go, as long as they're not obvious the BoS won't target them either, will they? It's once the BoS learns someone's a synth that they need to be eliminated, precisely because them being a synth openly makes them a hazard.

That is probably a case of gameplay and story segregation.

MeanSzuszu, on 25 Nov 2015 - 7:18 PM, said:

As far as synths go, as long as they're not obvious the BoS won't target them either, will they? It's once the BoS learns someone's a synth that they need to be eliminated, precisely because them being a synth openly makes them a hazard.

they're only a hazard in a institute hands - No institute, no danger. And that is not why BoS want to kill them all, Maxon and most BoS clearly named them abominations, and want to kill them out of principle not pragmatism.

Sadly this is the "true" Brotherhood. You arent seeing anything that is different. I served in the US Army and find that the Brotherhood acts much like our own militarized forces. We shoot first then ask questions later, but they are the best hope the Commonwealth has other than the minutemen. Institute only cares about themselves. Railroad are a bunch of idealistic dreamers, like the war protesters during Vietnam. The Minutemen care about the Commonwealth, but the Brotherhood has what is needed to keep them safe. Elder Lyon's Brotherhood was too goody goody for me. I enjoyed destroying them. Killing off the brotherhood was like a dream come true. Course in New Vegas, I also joined the NCR and enjoyed destroying all the clans that organized against us. But yeah I liked the Brotherhood in the Commonwealth. Find it hard to not do their questline again in another playthrough. Call me a "mass murderer" if you want, but I think the Brotherhood is the best hope the Commonwealth has. And this is Fallout. It's about survival, nothing more, nothing less

The Railroad seems to be able to mind-wipe them easily, and hack courser chips... Sounds like dangerously open tech to me.

The BoS kills individuals on principle, groups out of pragmatism.

The change (and many other story elements that would be present in FO4) was hinted at a dozen places in FO3 so no, it wasn't done because of fans. Anyone who bothered to listen to BoS members outside the main questline, which includes non-named ones, would know that extremely few supported Lyon's beliefs.

Heck, even Maxon's zealotry might have been foreshadowed via the fact that he quotes the codex, showing he cares a lot about it (and kids aren't usually that fond of quoting).

Also, the BoS members use word "Ferals" much, much more commonly than word "Ghoul". If they hated all Ghouls equally, they would never talk about Ferals, just about Ghouls.

I played through as an ally to both. I stuck with the BoS because, well, better toys. But I've spent more time overall doing Minute Men radiant quests, because I like helping the settlers. Doesn't hurt that it's one of the best ways to level up without having to advance the main plot if you don't want to do so. By the time I set out on the last few BoS plot missions I was in the 40s with the X-1 power armor and some cool modded weapons.

Of the four factions (and we're being generous to call the Railroad a full faction), the Minute Men were the closest to an uncorrupted force for good. As for the BoS, they always struck me as absolutists but given the condition of "normal" humanity I can't fault them for seeing the world as "us" versus a whole lot of them. After all, there's no way to play the fame WITHOUT killing a ton of ghouls and super mutants and synths, so the rhetoric is no different from the actions you HAVE to take. Whose more "racist," the person who TALKS a lot about hating these other types of beings, or the person who constantly KILLS those beings?

Where I really started to feel some sort of regret in choosing the BoS was their choice to set off a nuclear explosion under Boston. Innocent people were CLEARLY killed in that blast, and if the blast didn't do it the additional radiation would help to finish the job. Plus there's yet ANOTHER area of Boston reduced to an unusable radioactive pit. The BoS DID have other choices available: just invade the Institute, kill the defenders, and take the facility. There's no reason at all that they couldn't have achieved their goal of ending the Institute's work without detonating a nuke under a populated area. Not to mention, the BoS spends the whole game talking about their mission to find and preserve as much tech as possible. The Institute facility was the jackpot of all jackpots in that department, so nuking it wasn't the smart play for the BoS, not by a long shot.

The game should have let you knock out the Institute as an organization, take the facility, and then start moving your settlers down into a radiation-free, secure environment. Let them see some clean floors for a change.

One thing to bear in mind. We are only seeing brief periods in the history of each of these factions. Elder Lyons while noble, was an inept leader who wasted his forces re-fighting the 'Battle of Stalingrad' in the DC Ruins. The Outcasts were actually more helpful to the people of The Wasteland by conducting useful patrols, even if that wasn't their goal.

Now we are seeing a reactionary shift of the E BOS under Elder Maxson.

Given what he experienced on his road to leadership, it would be completely unrealistic for the SS to be able to completely reform him. But, you can influence him. For now it is just small ways, such as convincing him to spare Paladin Danse. But overtime I like to think that you will have greater influence.

If you are really dead set on being a good guy, play the Minutemen. Heck they even get their very own Citadel.

As for The Railroad, those folks are dangerously foolish. I have no guilt whatsoever with taking them out.

Why are the Railroad foolish?

@Charlemagne19

The 3rd gen synths are superior to your basic human according to the Institute. Unless the Railroad is reprogramming all of them to believe they are Mother Teresa, they are dangerous. Heck, a 3rd Gen Synth Mother Teresa is a little disturbing too.

Also, when the Railroad destroys the Institute, you evacuate the synths. That includes a bunch of Coursers that may be less than pleased to lose what was a fairly privileged position as Institute Secret Police.

Its like intentionally releasing weaponised anthrax into weak immune population.

But you have played them so perhaps you have a better view.

OT - I really enjoy some your commentary on the various factions, very well thought out.

I keep seeing the BoS' hate for Ghouls. That's just plain wrong. There's a reason they call the Ghouls they do hunt 'Ferals'. They're pretty indifferent to regular Ghouls this time around. They were mildly antagonistic towards them in FO3.

Remind Me why Bos is not welcome in Underworld back in D.C? Ah, yeah, they shot ghouls on sight.

I truly hope so, i would join Cross in a blink of an eye. I'll emend my previous statement then, i'll only return as a paying customer if Obsidian does the next Fallout or in a future DLC i can join Star Paladin's CapBOS and clean the floor with Maxson and his Nazi cronies. THAT i'd pay money for.

Than I guess pick the railroad or the Institute though I wish their were a way to order that all synths be aloud to leave with a new identity at their will and will not be persecuted for doing so under penalty of expultion from the institute. I mean your the director, why can't you have any say?

To be fair, you're Director because you can protect the Institute from its enemies.

Like...well, the Railroad.

To the OP ...

Did you ever play the original Fallout? Because honestly this depiction of the Brotherhood of Steel is more in line with the original depiction in the first game. The "Lyon's Pride" chapter in Fallout 3 was a splinter faction that conducted themselves differently, as other posters have mentioned.

I think it's actually a good thing that a game designer or artist is willing to portray the "bad" side of a military society ... maybe it will make people think twice before declaring war in the real world. Games like "Call of Duty" generally portray the U.S. army as the "good guys" with no moral ambiguity which is very unrealistic and frankly it could be dangerous. I think it's good for artists to portray this "bad" or "evil" side of war and the military ... "Spec Ops" was a great example of a game that broke the "good guy U.S.A." trope that so many games suffer from.

Did it occur to you that you don't have to do the Brotherhood plotline? In fact at any point during that whole quest line you actually could have chosen to just shoot Maxson on the spot and then go join the Railroad or focus your efforts on rebuilding the Minutemen. It sounds like that's what you wanted to do ... well, you really can do that. Seriously, just go back, reload an earlier save, and shoot that bastard. If you want to pick an unambiguously "good guy" faction then focus on the Minutemen quests and ignore the other factions, you will be a lot happier. The Railroad might be a good choice too, although they may also make some decisions that don't sit perfectly well with you.

For what it's worth I'm sorry that the game triggered these emotions in you. I grew up with my Dad who was in the military and law enforcement and he has PTSD from all that, it's pretty rough to watch someone you love go through that kind of experience and I remember how movies and video games could trigger him. If you're also going through that then I have some empathy for you ... remember that you aren't abnormal, you're having a normal reaction to an abnormal situation.