I have given tons of examples, very good examples. You just refuse to acknowledge them. There is no cure for Try-Hardism im afraid. The rest of us will be over in the other room, having a grand ole adventure with our wacky and inefficient yet more realistic characters while you cackle madly over your invisible trophy case, good day

okay...... have fun dieing while my characters delve deep into their own history, solve moral dilma that might hurt them, and come out as better person for it.

It is not MY FAULT you are not being very dedicated to that character or his ACTUAL backstory or the fact a big part of D&D is side fluff that does not exist in mechanics.

http://rs176.pbsrc.com/albums/w180/AngelofthePhoenix/fez_ISaidGoodDay.png~c200

No. I like it, and if I play Oog well, others will like it because he's so far out of left field. The only reason you don't like it is because you percive him to be mechamically useless. Which he may very well be to start off (I'll need to double-check my 3.5 PHB when I get home).

The Stormwind Fallacy posits that there is no overlap between optimization and roleplay, and explains that it is incorrect by stating that an unoptimized character is not necessarily better for roleplay, nor is an optimized character worse for roleplay.

You're insisting the opposite, basically. The better the build, the better the Roleplay. And that's not what the Stormwind Fallacy is. Double-check here http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2861636

Oog is unoptimized. Horribly. Oog's roleplay is focused on that; he must work harder than anyone else or abandon his dreams to be successful. He is a good roleplay because he makes his unoptimization a defining character trait. He is not automatically a good roleplay because he is unoptimized, however.

If I just had a wizard with 6 intllegence and no reason why, I've got a bad character, period. Conversely, if I have a wizard with a 16 or 18 intllegence, he's a good build, but not necessarily a good roleplay.

If I had Oog be the Half-Ogre Braniac Wizard, that's an entirely different roleplay than Oog the Half-Ogre Wannabe Wizard. And they're good for different reasons. The Smart Oog is about trying to fit in a society that sees him as a brute. The Dumb Oog is about achieving a seemingly-impossible dream through determination, or accepting one's limits.

Since you can do so, heavy armor lost all of its purpose and was at a major disadvantage in gameplay. No trade-off or meaningful item progression whatsoever.

The day clothes offer the same protection as Power Armor is the day Fallout franchise dies.

Well since the protection comes from the material and thickness of the armor and since Legion Centurions as well as NCR Heavy Troopers wear that armor as plating... it implies that you could reasonably make casual clothing as tough as any armor

The low-Str/Con fighter..... second son of a noble, expected by family tradition to be the "knight" supporting his older brother (who would inherit the Lordship). So he was trained by the family armsman to become that role - it's not his fault he was born a bit sickly, and would much rather study history & geography in the keep Archives. Fifth edition - 10 Str, 10 Con, higher Int & Wis. Perhaps some Dex, higher Cha. He doesn't use the heaviest armors (he has a set for Parade purposes, but his trainers realized he'd never be able to actually fight in Full Plate). For a Background package, either Noble, Scholar, or Diplomat.

Actually, that seems like a really interesting character to run....

and his dim-witted Ogre Wizard sidekick, the hardest-working Duo in the Kingdom

....but what if you made a Heavy Armor character? Or one who wasn't a Smith? (i.e, why are you looking at it from the standpoint of "must use only the most meta-game effective?")

Seriously, don't you decide ahead of time what style of character you're making?

Again, the "street clothes = power armor" thing came about via hyperbole as the thread progressed. The OP was asking if the layered armor system (plus crafting) would allow a lesser armor type to be effective longer. Not "a t-shirt" being as strong as "power armor".

For example.

(Just like I said that Skyrim's crafting let early-game armors be "good enough" to play at high level. Not "best". Honestly, I've rarely ended up with "best" in my gear in RPGs. As long as it lets me get by, that's fine. Doesn't have to be overpowering or invulnerable. Ditto with weapons... my first Skyrim character was able to use Smithing to keep using Dawnbreaker for about thirty levels, up into the 50's. Which was great! Loved that sword. Of course, it still only had a listed damage of ~105 on my equipment screen. I was never one of the people running around with 500+ damage weapons, or 30x sneak attack multipliers, that's just not my scene.)

No, then it would be armor, not clothing. When you stick metal sheets onto a leather shirt, it's no longer a shirt but a brigandine.

Centurions only use a shoulderplate. NCR heavy troopers use it without motor-assisting components so they lack stat bonus.

The most smithing should have given armors in Skyrim is how it worked in Mount & Blade: An expertly crafted coat of mail being on par with about plate armor. Instead they made ultra-light armors hit the cap and be better than Daedric since they were way lighter and easier to get with better skill perks.

You said protection, that shoulder on the centurion can take just as much damage as the shoulder of a BoS Paladin, like wise the Heavy trooper may be much slower but he is likewise as resistant to damage as the Paladin. The point is that you take you T-shirt and strap that power armor plate to it and you should (by all logic) be able to take as much of a beating in that spot as anyone wearing the same armor (powered or not)

You don't make a heavy armor character if heavy armor works worse. You also don't have any reason to not smith or enchant since the game doesn't restrict characters, unless you intentionally want to handicap yourself. Why do we even have a RPG if every item has the same stats? That would be a first person shooter with no armor system. Just stick regenerating health and be done with RPG then.

It shouldn't even be competing with medium armor, not just "ultra-heavy pinnacle armor at the very late endgame". That line of suggestion only opens a can of worms and we saw how that went in Skyrim. The armor system is a joke there. I used it thoroughly and I was fighting bosses on legendary difficulty with iron armor and iron claymore since I had hit the cap of both physical and magical resistance. That's broken.

If they carry over the same broken system because people want to play the game as randomshooterdude#2576, it will break many conventions of Fallout.

Provided that all the bullets magically landed on an area that covers like 5% of the body from the front.

Then that t-shirt wouldn't be your armor, you'd be wearing power armor. Like how you'd wear clothes in Morrowind but they didn't provide any protection, your armor was the armor you wore on top of that. I have nothing against that since it isn't the t-shirt that's doing the protection.

sure. It would also be likewise sensible to assume that any armor that you can strap armor to reflects those specific modifications in weight, protection, etc. I doubt they would go so in-depth but it would seem sensible to me that you could have heavier pauldrons and chest protection but have bare-minimum leg additions so that you can maneuver faster but still have issues with upper-body dexterity

Well add some realism here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_handgun_and_rifle_cartridges

This is the new damage table for guns, the most relevant values here is ME: Muzzle energy

Does this table take into account armor mitigation and piercing?

While I liked the leather armor it did get boring after a while. I didn't like any armor that have penalties so I generally wore leather armor the whole game. Would love some variations, or even be able to color it or something.

No, that mostly depend on bullet type

Range mostly depend on barrel length, also ammo type, most pistol bullets have an pretty flat front for more stopping power as pistols are short range anyway.

But that argument carries for what you're saying too..... why do we even have an RPG if every character picks the same skills & gear?

And yeah, I do make a heavy armor character if I want to. And characters without maxed Smithing, or without Enchanting. I don't make my decisions based solely on "the math says this choice is the One True Way". That'd be boring as hell.... as well as giving no reason to replay the game with new characters.

You're mistaking what would be a "costume" in a JRPG with "armor" slot. So no, it doesn't carry over because armor is worn for protection. If you demand all armor to provide the same protection, the concept of armor is no longer necessary and it's just skins that are sold in shooters.

Then you're gimping yourself intentionally and there shouldn't be a problem gimping yourself by wearing a shirt and pants in FO4. Play around that, lower difficulty, there are feasible options to play like that. I also play with weaker armor intentionally and I work my around that. Why would one expect the game's system to be changed because they find it harder to play with an intentionally gimped character?

You mean light, medium and heavy armor. I agree. On Skyrim, I preferred wearing light/medium than heavy.

You've proven you don't know what role playing is, and never did.

Closed for a cleanup of posts. I may reopen it later.