Or you could even do this a bit later on when levelling would normally be much slower. I think a lot of people will be going down this route as they start to feel things slowing down a bit at the higher levels. Bear in mind that you would only need a 5 in Intelligence to access all 4 ranks of the Educated perk.

...If that's what you wanna do, who are we to tell you you can't?

I mean, not the course I'd take, but you do you.

Not sure about points to level but the points awarded for kills in the E3 demo were very similar to points earned per kill in FO3. It did appear though that the deathclaw kill was earning XP with every shot from the mini gun. Its at 30:35 in the E3 presentation video. Most other kills only show XP for the kill, not each shot. The video is linked here but I couldn't get the time mark link to work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5esyZPt5Jo

Anyway, my point is that I think it will take a very long time to ever become MOAT, which I find to be awesome.

Thanks, that's helpful.

I enjoy game progression from a low base (I quite like zero to hero)

so I'm tempted to play as 'Nora' who for my head canon will be":

Smart (Intelligence 9)
Really Lucky (Luck 9) - hey, just survived a nuclear war ! and

Charismatic (Charisma 6)

I realise I don't need to be a 9 (excluding +1 for Bobbleheads)

but it would put my 'physical' skills

(Strength, Perception, Edurance and Agility) all at only 1 (!)

In order to develop them in the Boston wasteland.

I presume this will mean early problems:

Being able to carry very little,

being able to kill very little

being really weak

being an awful shot

But with the capacity to level fast.

Yep, I'm quite tempted by this build and I love the idea of the new system
supporting very different build and play styles.

Bear in mind that there are also skill books. Even though details have yet to be confirmed, with the amount of time I've spent taking apart the various game mechanics, I'm fairly confident that the end result of finding all skill books will be exactly the same as collecting all 20 bobbleheads. And so I would consider a maximum of 8 in any stat. Of couse, you are free to choose to set your stats as you wish, and so let's assume you will keep them as you suggested.

At the start of the game you would have 85 Hit Points, 70 Action Points, and your Carry Weight would be 210. This could leave you a little vulnerable as you progress, but the good news is that you would be levelling up a little faster due to your Intelligence, and so you will gain new perks and increase your total Hit Points a bit quicker. You would also have access to some very useful perks. For example, you could upgrade Dogmeat so that he can accompany you as a second companion, as well as giving him some very useful extra abilities. You could also boost your human companion's stats so that they remain active for longer and dish out more damage. This way, you would be less reliant on your own combat skills in the early stages of gameplay. On top of this, you could increase your chances of finding all sorts of goodies to make things a bit easier.

The point is, even if some would view this type of initial build as 'weak', by using the available perks effectively, you can balance just about any setup so that the game will still be enjoyable without having to make compromises.

Hope this helps

EDIT: corrected number of Hit Points from 70 to 85, and Carry Weight from 220 to 210. Trying to do too many things at once as well as being on here lol!

It really does, thanks, and only increases my anticipation for the game.

(Keeping it to maximum '8' would allow an initial 8/8/8 build in Intel/Char/Luck)

I'm sure there will be build threads once the game is launched.

@BOX, sorry to mention this on here but you know it's well intended, and thanks again for your excellent contributions

Back to your comment, an 8 in Charisma would also give you massive scope for building and managing settlements without compromising on any of the perks I suggested. And so your build suddenly becomes a lot more viable. Once I've finished the full update on my skills thread, which should be within two weeks, there will be very specific details for every single perk in the game. Even though this will of course all be speculation, the details I have uncovered would suggest that these will either be the exact perks in the final game, or at least very close. And so we might all be putting builds together a little sooner that expected!

On topic, I think the removal of the level cap is great news all round, and it's one of many ways that we are being given much more freedom to play the way we want this time round.

Just realised I gave you the wrong number of Hit Points on the previous comment. I've amended it from 70 to the correct value of 85. Sorry about that

EDIT: not on form today lol! Carry Weight has also been fixed. I had it down as 220 when it should have been 210.

So the final corrected values for 1 point each in Strength, Endurance, and Agility are CW 210, HP 85, AP 70.

It also leaves open the possibility to adapt your build part-way and doesn't kill a play through if you make an earlier 'mistake'....

I am good for this. Usually my first character is deliberately a MOAT to begin with. It gives greater experimentation with less hassle and generally gives me better ideas for other builds. It is a more flexible system and more fitting for a Bethesda game. I do have one concern for subsequent builds concerning a locking feature. The console editor could do much of that but a patched in feature would be better.

I can't remember for sure now, but I don't remember Fallout 1 or 2 having level caps either. At the least, I don't remember ever hitting a level cap before I'd run through all the content and finished the game.

I think the scaling of the leveling compared to the scope of the game is a more important factor, really. To me, what really matters is - if I go through all the content in Fallout 4 in a playthrough (do all the side quests I can find, explore the map and all the locations, finish the main quest, kind of taking my time but not really grinding or meta-gaming too much) what level is that going to put me at and what's my character's stats going to look like?

To my personal tastes, I'd kind of like to be at a point where I'm ready to go complete the Main Quest and by then have mastered most of the areas that were really important to me and still be sort of thinking "oh, but if I gain just one more level there's still this other Perk I'd like to get..." Ideally, if I then went and did another playthrough making different choices, those two characters wouldn't have the same stats.

If after I finish up with all the major adventuring and wanted to keep playing that character, I think not having a level cap and being able to max every single stat all the way would be great. By then I'd mostly be just playing with the sandbox features, maybe tracking down a couple last side quests or locations I'd missed. I'd have done all the important stuff, my character's "campaign" would be basically done, in a narrative sense - but it's still fun to advance a character and if I'm still having fun playing that character then I may as well keep advancing, even if just for the sheer sake of gaining a level.

I'd (ideally) have made all my important choices in the game, making the manner in which I'd advanced my character impactful and individualized (maxing out END and all it's Perks when I'd played through the entire quest as an END 3 Scientist makes for a different experience than reaching that same point when you're only halfway through the game.) If I then want to keep playing after the game is "done" and keep leveling my character to higher levels and MOAT, then I think it's the best of both worlds.

My worry would be in where the balance falls - if I kind of stop caring about leveling up because I've run out Perks I really wanted for that specific character before I've completed the MQ, then I'll be a tad disappointed. Otherwise I think it's great. I mean, there are quite a bit of Perks (especially if we're counting all their ranks) so I could foresee being able to attain a fairly high level before "over-leveling" would start to become that much of a problem. If that "sweet spot" hits right around the time I'm ready to "finish" the game, then I think that would be awesomesauce.

Hmm. Were there respawning enemies in those games, aside from the small random map-travel encounters? No level cap doesn't mean as much if there's a general limit on the supply of XP to gain.

I don't think they generally did at set locations but you could certainly roam around the world map and grind random encounters to your heart's content.

This just feels like a straight table-top to me, in many of them there isn't a level cap, just a question of how long you survive with the character and want/are allowed to play said character. As I mentioned in the last thread, I ended up with what amounts to a level 20 D&D character (nearly 500 karma *exp* for those that know shadowrun), and still had fun until a bad ending. It feels like the chains are off, I am abound with joy, as the character I am planning to play is easier done with no level cap, as she is supposed to be like Peter Petrelli (Something the GM decided, not me). It actually made me not care if the name Cecile is voiced by Codsworth.

In addition, while many feel like they are going to end up with the same character, the question is how did you get there? Did you kill to get there, hack, lie and convince, or build? The path is where the character development lives, not the end.

21 in Fallout 1 and 99 in Fallout 2

You ever think you're a bit too obsessive with your theories? You're so wrapped up in this cocoon of theories, over what? A little video that shows nothing at all in the big picture. Do yourself a favor and take a moratorium on FO4 until it releases. This road you're travelling leads to nothing but burn out, frustration and disappointment.

You ended up being around level 25 in f2 in a normal game.

If you grinded random encounters for a loooooong time you would become like level 40, hitting lvl 99 would be as close as no cap you can be without actually having no cap.

Ive played fallout 2 many many times and ive never played to lvl 99 without cheats nor heard of anyone who ever did. Id be very sceptical if someone said they did without cheats as each level took longer and longer in f2.

You ever consider there is enjoyment to be had by such theory formulation?

Some like speculating. Some like to not bother to pay attention until the release date. Some like to complain. I'd say it is best to keep ones eyes on the road they intend to travel.

You know, I've never thought about "level cap" in tabletop RPGs. Probably because I've never expected to play one long enough that it would matter. My "biggest" tabletop campaign was back in highschool, in..... hmm, was it 1st or 2nd ed AD&D? We played that game for 2.5 years. I think we made it to level 7. Also had a Shadowrun game (played using Rolemaster/Spacemaster rules) in college that lasted 1-2 years. That char got to level 9. Most GMs I've played games with were pretty conservative on giving out XP.

(That said, I know that several D&D editions have had a cap of 20.)

It's a good idea. Never-ending Fallout is a win in my eyes.

I had an everything character for Fallout 3/NV... I did play through multiple times, with multiple characters... but my everything character was there for when I just wanted to roam around... In Fallout 3, I hunted Supermutants long after I had finished all of the main and dlc content....and I plan to do the same in Fallout 4, the fact that I'll still be rewarded for doing so is a bonus. As for specializing a character, there's no one stopping you from doing so.... Take the perks you want, make your special how you want.... this just allows for the off chance you decide to develop your character more. Maybe after X amount of time you decide your character picked up a few new tricks while in the wastes? Before it was like " but I'm max leveled".... now it's like, "I have all these perk points that I didn't intend to use, but I think this perk would define my character better, now that he/she has gotten much more experienced in the wastes".

As this somewhat relates, here is something Pete Hines talked about how they worked on the Perk System and it's relation to leveling.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2015/08/08/fallout-4-how-the-new-perks-system-works-gamescom-2015

That interview was basically nothing new. Kinda wish Beth would give us a bone but I guess we have to wait till Pax Prime or when the Dev Dairies start in Sept.