What if Maxson kills intentionally Sarah? : Fallout 4

» Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:46 pm

What if Maxson killed Sarah Lyons to get the role of elder, and govern the Brotherhood, because pushed from the ancient tales of valor and glory of his ancestors? His greed and lust for power would push himself to betray Sarah who loved him as a brother; and the same Brotherhood

Protecting DC did not care. What they wanted most was a pre-war technology to keep for themselves.

A good reason to get together with "outsiders". And he needed a symbol for his propaganda. Something that would take again met the Brotherhood. The institute was the ideal scapegoat. But he had to eliminate those still loyal to the old Lyon and his daughter. Probably did "eliminate" the opposition with excuses of betrayal and insubordination, erasing any information from the records about them, and to Sarah, it remains only a false testimony.

But if she survived, along with his loyalists? If she stayed in DC, ready to punish him who he loved before becoming "elder"?

No, do not tell me "but we read that she is dead." Really: where is her body? I want more Proves that she is dead.

In addition he is too young to be an Elder. Before becoming the leader of the Brotherhood, he must be an experienced fighter, and wise leader and should have years of experience before being appointed to his role. But not Maxson, since it is a direct descendant of the founder of the Brotherhood.

» Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:36 pm

I really, really doubt that he had killed Sarah. Not only did he seem to care a lot about her, but IIRC he was still a young kid when she died. I'd argue that he is a kid still.

I think it is possible that one of traditionalists killed her and used that to influence Maxson's ideals though.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:22 am

Whops, I forgot that. True. But I wonder, how could this happen?

It means that Maxson maybe it was a puppet that was used by the traditionalists just to have consensus and power, within the Brotherhood?

They use him only because he is just "a symbol" of their own interests? Maybe he has not real power, since most of the members are under the controll of these traditionalist.

But hey, still possible they manipulate him since he was a children and lie to him about her death? Or even to kill, by under their same orders? Like "kill Sarah, and we promise you to be the next elder"

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:28 am

I think Sarah is more likely to have gone missing.

But I do think the West Coast Elders took advantage of it.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:59 am

And that why should be interesting see the evolution of these events, and investigate about this "missing Elder" and this possible crime.

A DLC would be great. Maybe can cause troubles inside the same Brotherhood and start a possible "civil war" inside his ranks between the Lyon Loyals and the traditionalists, again.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:15 am

I confess, I am thinking that will be an awkward team up for my Sole Survivor given he destroyed all of Maxson and his forces.

"Sorry, I kinda killed your surrogate brother and most of your order."

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:06 am

In that case, the quest would be considered failed. Or maybe not, because according to them Maxson and all others were considered guilty of high treason. So we'll be talking with the loyalists of Lyon/DC Brotherhood. And not with Boston Brotherhood.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:56 am

I think it would be a cool situation to make Sarah part of a future DLC.

She could be a Companion you take back to the Wasteland.

And while she'd turn hostile if you didn't make a speech check, you could do stuff like with Veronica where you visit the ruins of the Airship to pay your respects.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:26 am

I'm think the west coast elders after hearing about the east coast's success and deciding to use for their own ends sent an assassin to kill the then current elder (Sarah) to place and influence Maxson as elder.
After all her dying only shortly after ascending to elder seems pretty fishy to me. It would also expain why their contacting them again.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:55 am

Except, Maxson didn't rise to power after Sarah. At least two Elders were between them who got fired or killed.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:16 am

That would be great, very emotionally sad, and a good way to play again Fallout 4 in different ways

Possible, so this could explain why they get so interest again with the east coast brotherhood.

And if one of them had abdicated, or maybe even both? Or also, because one of them knew about the west brotherhood interests. Or it was complicit in the conspiracy, to elect Maxson, new elder.

» Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:15 pm

Well, someone definitely did support Maxson from the shadows. There is no way for a 13 years old boy to survive and kill a Deathclaw and for the entire BoS to believe it (well, at least not before Maxson gets super popular).

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:49 am

And that's the great question: who did this? Who did this great conspiracy? How could be possible survive against a deathclaw attack? Only with high tech weapons and having a strong power armor. And in that case he can't wear it, only shot him with a simple plasma or a laser rifle.

» Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:03 pm

Presumably non-recruited BOS at the top of the food chain still loyal to Lost Hills working with Lost Hills' Elders.

People more Casdin than Star.

If I had to guess? Scribe Rothschild.

» Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:22 pm

That's why we need a DLC about this conspiracy. is still too confusing for me. We need still to understand a lot of things

» Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:02 pm

I doubt it's a conspiracy, Arthur was who Lyons was grooming to be his successor as head of the BoS.

Owen Lyons believed in him.

I imagine Scribe Rothschild and others believed he was the man for the job.

They just didn't realize Arthur would be more loyal to his ancestors than his mentor.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:46 am

Rotschild? IMO, he is one of the suspects as he is a traditionalist inside Lyon's BoS. He criticized Lyon's decisions and his break-away from WC BoS.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:34 am

Yeah, the only problem I see with that is after Sarah and Lyons, he would be the natural Elder.

Unless we're qualifying Good Karma Lone Wanderer or Cross.

And neither strikes me as "ineffectual" unless they were overthrown for being too liberal/radical/Lyonist.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:50 am

I wouldn't read too much into that "ineffectual" part. Most of history we hear is pro-Maxson and anti-Lyons propaganda (isn't it in the same place as that "He killed Deathclaw at age of 13)? If we met someone who was pro-Lyons, he might tell us a different history.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:28 am

I wish this were a plot point in the main game. You could hack or intercept a lost hills communication and discover the truth, then you could ignore it and keep the BOS on it's current path or try to show it to Maxson, if you choose the second option some hardline brotherhood members who were aware of the conspiracy would try to kill you.

» Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:56 pm

I brought this up a few times in the last few days.

my personal theory, the hardliners who supported Maxson were threatening Sarah's position, so in anticipation for such an event, she took her most loyal Pryde Members and faked their deaths to work things from the shadows while they manipulate the removal of the hardliners.

I've got a far more elaborate theory, but it's late and i'm tired.

» Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:18 am

So, let's recap well, every single step: Owen Lyons reaches the east coast, and is setting up with the Brotherhood, in the ruins of the Pentagon. After having seen how reduced DC, especially for Vault 87 super mutants. Lyons breaks the current goal of the Brotherhood, triggering a split in his group that gives rise to Outcast.

Perhaps at that moment, it is possible that the Outcast have reported the "treason" committed by Lyon at the original members of the West Coast. The problem is that they could send a battalion and punish Lyon. Since this would lead to a war, moreover, thanks to its policy of recruitment of local, Lyon had offset losses incurred after the split with the Outcast. What was the alternative? Spy and act in the shadows. Perhaps, the West Coast Brotherhood, sent members of the Circle of Steel, to monitor the situation and manipulate anything, so the Brotherhood returns to its original Directives: collecting technology.

What was the alternative? Spy, and act in the shadows. Perhaps, the West Coast Brotherhood, sent members of the Circle of Steel, to monitor the situation and manipulate anything, so the Brotherhood returns to its original Directives: collecting technology.

We know that, in New Vegas, the Circle of Steel is a secret police used to punish those responsible for treason. Elijah, as he was chased by Christine Royce, after his failed policy, to control Helios One, had been sentenced to death, but he ran and hunted among Big MT and the Sierra Madre, to be punished for his crimes .

Then, the CoS, spied and possibly monitored every single activity of Lyon with the Conservatives, and Outcast. So, start the events of Fallout 3, and Broken Steel. Project Purity, and war against the enclave. Lyon became a hero along with the Lone wandered. For the CoS and West Brotherhood it has become too powerful, and are not able to "execute" him for his crimes. Because they are too weak against Lyon. So they plan a way to recheck the East Brotherhood, without bloodshed: manipulare Maxson and make him a puppet, for their interests. But can't be possible, because there is the Lone wandered, Sarah Lyon is the direct successor to Owen and possible tutor of the same Maxson, and there are too many Lyon loyalists who patrol DC, and the Citadel.

So: they try to manipulate Maxson and make him a puppet, for their interests. But they still can't because there is the Lone wandered, Sarah Lyon is the direct successor to Owen and there are too many Lyon loyalists who patrol DC, and the Citadel.

And when it seemed impossible, events change. Owen Lyon dies; the Lone wandered disappear (maybe remained in space aboard the Mothership Zeta to fight aliens, and protecting the Earth; and this would explain his mysterious disappearance). Sarah becomes the new elder, and is vulnerable. Without someone to protect her, it is easily killed, or at least "masked" her murder as an accident. We do not know if she is really dead or survived the accident. We only know that she is no longer in command of the East Brotherhood.

No more Lyon, the West Brotherhood, and CoS could again resume control of East Brotherhood and reunite with Outcast.

Maxson is then raised, according to the ideals and interests of the loyalists. And unlike the old Lyon; they are sure to have a puppet to their orders. But in the time of 10 years between the events of Fallout 3, and Fallout 4, it is possible that some loyalists had discovered the plans, and when it was too late, were hunted down and possibly killed. An example? Three Dogs. He was one of the most important loyalist and speaker of GNR: trying to shed light on her mysterious departure. Many loyalists like him still asking questions. And the only way to end this kind of trouble is censorship, and "disappearance" of many other, in mysterious ways. Mostly "accidental".

And it is possible that those who had not been killed by the Conservatives or the CoS, has taken flight, living in hiding, as they are wanted by the new authorities.

This would also explain why the East Brotherhood had no more interest in DC: the new leaders, wanted technologies, not to help the locals. and they stole everything Lyon got during his years in DC, especially the Enclave Technologies

But that they might have more control, it needed a symbol, and an element that would moved the East Brotherhood exploring again the ruins of the east coast. Maxson had to make the new "future" of the Brotherhood, and get back to basics, and be just like his ancestors

And it is possible that those who had not been killed by the Conservatives or the CoS, has taken flight, living in hiding, as were wanted by the new authorities.

This would also explain why the East Brotherhood had no interest in DC: the new leaders, wanted technologies, not to help the locals. But that they might have more control, it needed a symbol, and an element that would moved the East Brotherhood exploring again the ruins of the east coast. Maxson had to make the new "future" of the Brotherhood, and get back to basics, and be just like his ancestors

They needed a propaganda in order to divert the attention and the doubts of those who still doubted the new leaders. So the Conservatives; organize a mock fight, for Maxson, against a Deathclaw. He survives, gets his scar, and become the new hero of the small Brotherhood. And while everyone is distracted, the conservatives and CoS can act undisturbed, seeking possible new sites where they can rob all their pre-war technology they want.

In addition, it is possible that the Conservatives, had calculated that the more time passed, and Maxson grew, thinking often questions about why Sarah was dead.And he was becoming an awkward figure, because he wanted to have his autonomy / role in the Brotherhood. They understand that the only way to get rid of it and keep it away from DC is sending him on a mission to defeat enemies of the brotherhood, or plunder prewar technologies, on their order. A distraction in order to clean up the "mess" that Lyon had created all these years. In this way much of the Brotherhood moved to Boston, and the people left in DC, are only conservatives and CoS, which are going in search of the loyalists to kill, and evidence / documents to hide. All for the sake of the "brotherhood" and the greed of his conservative.

What do you think?