That might only be true for the blockbuster AAA titles though. Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eternity to name a few all cater towards the 3, 4, 5 players. Granted, they'll never have the sales of a Bethesda game, but they're still successful.

If that's true then there is going to be an empty space waiting to be filled.

Probably older games that used to cater to those players will acquire legendary status as players would still be playing them, to get that kind of experience they want out of them. And there will be a bad thing for those players, because they won't have new games of the type they want to play, but at some point some other developer / company might see the opportunity, and make a game for these people, and out of nowhere their game will become popular and successful, because there will be no other game competing in satisfying the needs of those players. And then the other companies that had ignored these players all along, will start copying a feature or two of said game, until things change again.

It reminds me kind of how the FPS genre after abandoning the old complexity of the 90s FPSs becoming more and more linear and scripted, it suddenly woke up from sleep and started trying to become less linear and more complex with games like the Far Crys, RAGE, and the newer Doom.

Baseless statement

I been spoiled playing Morrowind, Oblivion, Baldur's Gate, Old Republic, Dragon Age Origins, Dragon's Dogma [which is actually a very good game], Kingdoms of Amular [again another great game and I am so [censored] pissed that the company went out of business because Kingdoms of Amular is an underrated game that came out at the wrong time, when God of War and Mass Effect were coming out so it got drowned in the hype of those two big titles. But Kingdoms of Amular was an ingenious, amazing game, with unique creatures, unique settings, can you tell I like Kingdoms of Amular, lol], Two Worlds 2 [which is another greatly underrated game, but I like it a lot], Fallout New Vegas, [censored] I even liked Fallout 3 more than Fallout 4.

And the argument is that your character is given a history in Fallout 3. But I said it before. Fallout 3 may have you given a defined character history, but once you go out into the wasteland, actually even before that. You are given the choice to create who your character is. And the choices you make as a child, if you're a storyteller and method actor, might not be the same choices you make as an advlt in the Wasteland. Because kids evolve and their personalities just don't stick to one or two traits. To create a dimensional character they evolve and either the Wasteland could corrupt them, or they were never really prepared for the real world,etc.

Even Fallout New Vegas, you can define your character. Maybe the reason why he's a bit psychopathic now is because even though the doc fixed what he could, doesn't mean there wasn't brain damage somewhere. Or you can make the character a good person or always a bad person. All though I always built characters who make good and bad decisions. I switch back and forth based on how he felt.

Fallout 4 is the complete opposite. Because the character really does play off as good, family figure, and the dialogue wheel does not allow for further complicated characterization of your own character. And even when my character is being a dike, he still sounds too nice about it.

I cannot reap and redeem the consequences of my characters actions in Fallout 4.

At least in Fallout 3, if you don't defuse the bomb, the reap and redeem of those actions is that Megaton might get blown up, by you none the less.

Both FNV and F3 still gave you options in complex way to come to a conclusion for the quest. This was not expressed in F4 as well.

obviously so don't expect a change anytime soon

Baseless? Have you seen the way most RPGs have gone in this day and age?

let me rephrase: is the sub-par writing incumbent to their success? are more people buying it specifically because of the sub-par writing?

Well no, it's because the subpar writing attracts the kind of consume who gets distracted by yellow paper taped to their wall. It's easier to grab someone's attention if they don't have to think about what they are doing.

if I had to hazard a guess I would say no, however you are inferring everyone believes bethesda has sub par writing...I dint think they're great say like old school bioware...I think they're average at best most of the time...but their writing hast really deterred anyone either...writing is very subjective tho what may be bad to you might be pretty good for someone else

It's pretty hilarious how everyone who bashed the writing's game seems to think they're of above average intelligence.

But then, everyone thinks they're above average.

I highly disagree. A skilled player will limit themselves, by should a player acknowledge boundaries that aren't there. The decisions I make have no impact in Skyrim at all. And if a game, must force the character to impose their own rules on a game and the game not establish them, then what the [censored] am I playing this game for?

Guilds in Oblivion and Morrowind didn't let you join if you had a criminal background, beside the thieves and the assassins.

Some guilds actually had beefs against each other and didn't like the others. In Morrowind you couldn't join certain guilds because you were an enemy of another guild.

The very fact the game allows you to join all guilds is insulting in Skyrim. It's what I said before, if the Player Themselves Have to Impose a Rule to "Fix" what's wrong with the game or Heavily Mod the Game to "Fix" all the problems with it. If a game is better modded than Vanilla, then obviously it wasn't a good game to begin with.

A player should never be expected to acknowledge boundaries that aren't there. I never suggested he should.

How long has it been since you played Oblivion? You can join all of the factions regardless of what your characters skills or actions are. That was one of the main criticisms in 2006 from the dumbing down brigade, when their focus turned away from Morrowind and now it was Oblivion that was the most horrible game ever released.

But you couldn't join the guilds if you had a criminal record. And you couldn't certainly pray at a shrine if you were a criminal.

didnt u just paid gold to remove the criminal statues?? or spend like 1 night on jail?

You couldn't join if you had a bounty, but then you couldn't do a lot of things with the guards constantly hunting you when you had a bounty, much the same as in Morrowind and Skyrim. The shrines work on you having a positive fame/infamy rating, the infamy from doing evil quests rather than actual criminality, stealing had nothing to do with it. You could join any guild with any form of fame/infamy rating, a dark brotherhood assassin would have no trouble fitting in with the fighters or mages guild and could do all their quests, just like in Skyrim but unlike in Morrowind where each faction required a certain skillset to advance in ranks. Also in Morrowind the only faction choice that locked you out of others is the great houses, all of the other factions just suffered a disposition hit that could be regained by joining said faction. A Telvanni Archmagister could also be the Mages Guild Arch-Mage, despite those two factions being out for each others blood at every turn. If said Archmagister also worked on some combat skills and got some of his stats up, he could sign on with the Fighters Guild and/or Imperial Legion and also advance to leader, even though those factions were once again entirely opposed to each other. The reasoning behind the great houses not being joinable completely is I think because there's the stronghold quest that also builds the opposing houses strongholds and gives you a mission to go kill the lords that inhabit them. Being lord of all 3 strongholds just wasn't going to work.

my take on it is simple....when it comes to the main storyline, it's bullcrap. but when it comes down to all the small glimmers of information and situations. it shines. like the tidbits you get from the quincy assult in quincy. and the small details all around the map like fort strong and the likes.

if you compared Skyrims story to this one, I'd say skyrim comes out on top. because there were meaningful climixes and actual emotion to some of it. it felt longer too.

to be honest, this voiced protagonist is just a hinderence to the overall story potential. but I guess most of the casuals wouldn't be satisfied with just reading. My gods the freaking dialog reminds me of mass effect, you never know what you're gonna say.

Voiced Protagonist

I hope thats one thing that either dies completely or gets a massive overhaul come the next game. Fallout 4 is the second game Bethesda has released that I have some disclaimers to go along with my intense love of the game. Oblivion was the first with its really crazy level scaling, but then with the later games improving on it immensely I am able to enjoy Oblivion on its own terms. If this voiced thing is just for Fallout 4 I think ill be able to look past it a lot better in the future, as it stands now I just hope that by making the case for how it's a downgrade in a polite and logical way we can up the chances for it not being in the next game.

But just like Skyrim, I always come in with characters and know their builds. My characters don't generally join every guild because it never suited their personalities.

But the point I was saying, is I don't like when a character has to self impose rules on their own when it already should be in the game. I also like there to be actions and consequences for the choices my characters make.

Don't care too much for the voiced protagonist/dialogue system but it's definitely not a deal breaker. Gameplay is good, crafting is good, good side quests, exploration is good but the main story is okay at best and the weaker rpg elements are kind of a downer. Don't hate anything about this game but I don't know, I guess I got too hyped or something. Still having fun though and have put over 120 hours in already. I was hoping for more side factions that had nothing to do with the main story, like if we could become a raider king or join the Gunners. I know that's all the Minutemen are supposed to be but my god those repetitive [censored] settlement quests, I've gone from helping settlers and wanting to build places to hating those [censored]ers with a passion and there was only like 3 unique Minutemen quests, kind of a let down. And everyone In Diamond City must be omniscient, I stole something while hidden and the second I came out of hiding the whole town was on my ass, what the [censored]'s with that. I never really played an evil character but from what I've played it seems you can be morally gray at best, yeah you can kill settlers and steal [censored] but it sill seems lacking, oh well.

Yeah, I do the same thing with my forever characters in each game. Verrick over in Oblivion thinks that all non-magical pursuits are just wasting time, and thus hasn't joined a faction other than the mages guild. Halfgeir of Skyrim is a Nordic Warrior with a bias and distrust to magic among some other things, meaning the reverse is true for him not consorting with those wizards.

The thing is that the whole self-imposed limit thing is that Bethesda has placed player freedom above more hard consequences since I started playing with Morrowind. I would say this is for the better. House Telvanni is violently opposed to outlanders, yet you being a outlander can become leader of the entire faction. Sadrith Mora doesnt allow outsiders to wander around at night, but this doesnt include you. If I couldn't join the most unique and interesting faction in Morrowind because that's logically what Gothren and his vassal mage lords would have decided it would have only hurt the game. Ultimately player freedom is what TES and Fallout are about, and sometimes logic has to take a backseat to allowing you complete agency. Some may say its a bad thing, and I understand that, but its been like that since Vvardenfel was the new world to be in, and its not really changed all that heavily since then.

When a thread gets to the point of insinuating that the people here who play Fallout/Bethesda games do not read books and are entertained by a yellow piece of paper, then it's purely flames and can't be discussed.

After all most people who come here do so because they are playing the game. Don't insult the majority of the members here.

I'm closing this and hopefully will have the time to clean it up and issue warnings.