Hi everyone.

I've restarted a new character and almost maxed perception(7) and agility(8) to rely on VATS every time I get to shoot something, cause that's the thing I like most about Fallout 4. I'm level 8 now.

Recently I've fully upgraded my pipe pistol to a sniper rifle, using Gun Nut 1 perk. . I'm dissapointed cause now I have only 2 action points instead of almost 5, what gun mod could have done that ?

Also, when in VATS are you shooting from the hip or with the sights ? Google didn't really helped me on this one. Some gun mods specify that while adding sighted range, shooting from the hip accuracy is decreased, so if VATS is done shooting from the hip then I would avoid those mods.

And 3rd question: How can I make VATS more accurate then sighted shooting ? I often find that when I shoot with sights I'm way more acccurate than VATS, but I really don't wanna let go of VATS that easily.

As I understand it, its the scope thats shaving of how many shots ya can do in vats.

As far as I know vats doesn't use either, so to speak, hip or ADS affecting mods like rifle stocks and such is purely about real time combat, all vats care about is the guns accuracy stat.

Definitely the scope that's doing it. The Long and Short scopes make it a sniper rifle.

.38 makes for a terrible sniper rifle anyway - no punch. Best use of .38 is to put a full-auto/high ROF reciever in and spam swarms of bullets. That'll solve the OP's AP problem as well, and, at close range, a swarm of .38's can be pretty devastating.

Personally, I go for a heavier punch in fewer shots - like the OP, I rely on my Perception and Agility to end fights quickly. Long range with a modded-up .308 Sniper, and I keep a sawn-off Shotty for close-quarters. That lends itself to a Perception build due to the Rifleman perk, which affects not only all non-auto rifles but also shotguns, so anything that does manage to get close to me usually has a very bad time.

Shotty is also useful for the wild spam shots one takes vs melee attackers while desperately wating for AP to recharge - surprising rate of fire on the double-barrel. Also completely removes the concern for things like hip-fire vs sighted accuracy, cuz you just stuff it in their face before you fire.

Ok, so general accuracy stat counts when using VATS. No more trouble guessing whether is the hip or scope accuracy.

Still would want to see these when I mod a gun:

- how many AP the gun uses in VATS (how many times can I shoot it before I run out of AP)

- how the gun stats changes when I apply a mod (damage, fire rate, range and accuracy)

For this i have to exit the modding bench every time I apply a mod, enter VATS to see how many AP it uses, then go into pipboy to see the gun stats. Kinda annoying.

But anyway, you were right, .38 rounds svcked so I got myself the Overseer's Guardian and with riflemen lvl2 and gun nut 1 I modded it to have 103 damage, 33 fire rate, 203 range and 91 accuracy, and I have 4 shots in VATS. With the gun firing a second bullet, I guess the damage is 206 and there are actually 8 bullets fired in VATS right ? I ventured all the way to the other end of the map and didn't had trouble surviving, and I'm level 10. Great gun. Though sometimes it goes into sighted mode when I enter VATS, strange...

RealBadMike, witch one do you prefer when using medium-long range shots with the sniper: scope sighted shooting or VATS ?

I think remmus was incorrect in his assumption, I'm pretty certain VATS uses hip fire. So gun mods that improve hip fire improve VATS. That's why scopes kill VATS accuracy. Not positive though, interested in more thoughts on that.

I'm curious because then concievably if one wanted a more accurate "snipe rifle" strictly for VATS, they'd actually go with a reflex sight over a scope.

Where's that anol guy that's on every game forum and has tested all this stuff out? Lol

I know that pistols have much lower AP requirements than rifles so I'm thinking the grip / stock changes the weapon AP cost drastically.

I have certainly have scoped / reflex sighted VATS kill views and also had hip fired views, so I'm not sure the animation that is shown has any real relation to which accuracy VATS is using.... * shrug *

Then why is an unmodded shotgun as or more accurate in VATS (shown in the accuracy percentages in VATS) than a 200 accuracy sniper rifle at 20 feet? My shotty almost never misses, my pistols are also accurate in VATS, my super-accurate rifle misses as much or more while in VATS. While not using VATS, the rifle is very accurate though...

I am not certain about any of this, but here are my observations:

1. Using a weapon with a scope in VATs is the worst thing you can possibly do: a. you will miss far more than if you snipe with it yourself; b. it will do less damage even when it hits (haven't tested this extensively but that is my observation, I think that perhaps sneak damage doesn't count); c. you will get fewer shots per time.

If I am not wrong, I think that VATs could be considered the "opposite" of sniping.

2. This point is more speculative: I think pistols or other weapons that use mods that increase ROF are from the hip firing are the best choice. Mods that increase other aspects of speed and accuracy are also good, but NO SCOPES!

ADDIT: but yeah, VATS is pretty freaking fun, especially with PsychoJet!

I personally am addicted to lurking around, gazing through a scope and getting one shot kills from so far away they never find me . . . but a "VATS Build" could be fun to do some time

This does not work so well with the higher-tier feral ghouls. I swear they are coded to twitch out of the way JUST when you pull the trigger with a sniper rifle!

Thank you, I agree. So there's a distinction between types of accuracy depending if you're not using VATS and either ADS (aiming down sights) or not, mods effect all this.

Then, on top of that there's VATS. Now if it was a flat accuracy stat then your long scoped 200+ accuracy sniper rifle would rarely miss in VATS at close to medium range, let alone long range. But those are the ones that DO miss more in VATS.

I think where VATS really shines is up close and personal. Even out to "medium" range it is fine, but beyond medium range (where a scope is useful) VATs is not at its best. This is because VATs probably cannot (or at least "will not") compensate trajectory for moving targets and distance: meaning, if the player is firing at something far away that is moving, you can lead with your shot a bit and let them "step into" the shot. VATs doesn't do that.

The other thing to keep in mind with a scope-equipped weapon: when you magnify you reduce the depth of field and peripheral view as well. This means that it is much easier to "dodge" a shot from a sniper rifle, and that gets far worse the closer you get.

I think you're on to something. Call me crazy but it seems like my 10mm pistol started missing more (close range) after I put a silencer on it, despite the fact that a silencer appears to increase close range accuracy. Silencer's as we know, greatly reduce bullet speed (hidden game mechanic?). Since silencing the Pistol I've had 3 consecutive misses going for VATS headshots from 10 feet away with a 90% hit chance displayed. It's bizarre, I wish there was more info on this.

I'm a mild min/maxer type and am finding it a little irritating that I don't fully understand the implications of all the different gun mods.

Yeah, in the past hours of playing I've made a habit of using VATS by getting at least at mid range distance or even closer to the targets. With the sniper described in my last post. Witch is counter intuitive......for a god d a m n sniper. I should be getting farther, not closer.

If the target is medium to long range I ditch VATS completely and go manually aiming with the scope. So easy to aim this way at long range, yet when I switch to VATS I get torso percentages below 30%.

Someone needs to crack this puzzle. I think it's only a matter of time.

I play snipers and here is my build at level 22:

S 2

P 4

E 4

C 6

I 6 (+2 since rolled)

A 5

L 1

Sneak 3

Lone Wanderer 2

Gun Nut 2

Rifleman 3

Locksmith 3

Scrapper 1

Local Leader 2

Medic 1

Cap Collector 1

I'd say the most important skill for a sniper is sneak. Gun Nut is probably second so you can trick out your rifles how you like. Rifleman of course is very helpful; But even without any Rifleman perks, a well placed head shot with a strong enough rifle should either kill or knock to half health most run-of-the-mill baddies (not bosses). Of course the goal is to one shot them and not have to deal with them shooting back or charging at you, but if you knock them down by half health, it is still good.

The trick with playing a sniper is to be very patient. Observe, move slowly, wait, get in position for the head shot, wait, wait, wait . . . finally the perfect head shot and *bang* dead Super Mutant/Feral Ghoul Reaver/insert baddie. The game engine does a good job of "weighting" anatomical hit values, namely headshots are devastating. The fact that the sneak attack multiplies it by 2 or 3 times is of course not realistic, but it is a satisfying and not unbelievable game dynamics. It is generally advisable to shoot once and relocate, or at least fall back to where enemies will not detect you.

There is no point playing a "sniper" who uses VATs. It is just not the way it was meant to work.

A VATs toon would tend to use pistols, sub-machine guns, maybe shotguns or carbines, melee could be good for a VATs build too, though the need to invest in Agility, Strength and possibly Perception might be a bit of a trick.

ADDIT: I read your post a bit more closely and I think you are still not clear on one thing, you would not use the same weapon in VATs as you use to snipe with. My load out is like this (by hotkey)

1. "Big Jim" a Legendary hooked pipe wrench that has a chance to cripple legs

2. "Sgt Schultz" a fully tricked out combat shotgun that does about 80 damage per shot

3. "Spring XdM" a tricked out silenced 10mm pistol, non-auto. I'll upgrade to a more potent pistol at some point.

If I ever use VATs this is what I use, though the shotgun could be effective too.

4. ".38 Lee Enfield" a pretty heavily tricked out .38 calibar pipe rifle with glow sights. Reflex would be fine too. This is my "pea shooter" that is for killing things that get too close but are not too threatening.

5. ".308 Nightstalker" a heavily tricked out pipe rifle chambered in .308 and with a night vision scope. I pretty much don't bother changing to a day scope at this point, it is doable. At one point I had a nice Recon sniper rifle that was sweet, but I guess I accidentally sold it.

Between Sgt Schultz and Nightstalker that is probably 80% of my kills, and Big Jim is probably another 10% (use it on mongrels and mole rats and the like).

That's my play style too. Lurking in the shadows and positioning for the head shot. Having the Overseer's guardian legendary rifle modified with Gun nut 2 gets my enemies (super mutants and similar) in 1 shot when hidden or 2 shots when detected. I'm lvl 18 now.

I just can't wait to get a silencer on it, always shoot from hidden and do 2,5X damage, 1 kill shot everyone in the area without anyone not knowing what hit them and from where . At the moment after I kill from hidden the first person I'm detected or have [Caution] sign and I just don't have the patience to wait for them to consider I'm gone, I just go and kill the rest in the area. I dunno how you have the patience to wait and go into hidden mode again, even with sneak lvl 3 (I have lvl 2 and 10 agility, witch helps with sneak).

Do you know if moving in the light or the shadows or moving in day time vs night time helps with sneak ? Lately I've been moving at night to get detected harder and I dunno if it has any effects. In the loading screen with the tips they don't mention it, just say about noise, move speed etc.

About the VATS, it works so far, though I kinda have to get mid range to get decent % chances to get the shot. But it's not that bad. I tried playing without it, aiming manually with the scope and I don't like it, VATS is what I like about Fallout and without it it just seems like a regular shooter game for me, it's a personal preference.

I've also been playing a sniper but with secondary emphasis on pistol combat for close quarters, it's working very well. One undervalued thing about pistols is they are a light, so you can carry a variety (energy weapon for robots etc), and not give up too much loot carrying space. They also are quite accurate and not only have I been scoring tons of headshots in VATS at close ranges, the AP count allows for multiple targets to be taken out in one round of VATS fire.

I modded a 10mm pistol with a silencer and every mod that boosts hip-fire/damage. I just took down the 5 gangsters by the river outside Diamond city after telling them to hand over the chems. They opened fire, I hit VATS and downed 4 with headshots in one VATS targeting sequence and finished the last with one well placed manual shot. No perks for VATS yet either (level 16).

I started with:
Str: 3 (wanted armorer)
Perc: 7
End: 3
Char 1: (slowly increasing every few levels as a perk choice, can make it 8 with clothes atm)
Int: 6
Agi: 7 (grabbed Ninja as 1st perk)
Luck: 1

Had modded leather to shadow armor for first few levels now use shadow metal to boost sneak.

Just grabbed science perk to begin phasing into modded energy weapons. So far 1 shot Mutants sniping headshots, can quietly take out foes I sneak up on with silenced pistol or down a room full of raider types in one VATS round, and have the trusty shot gun if things get hairy. Also have had success with mid range silenced single shot rifle (reflex sight).

Still would love confirmation of weapon mod system for VATS though. I've been going on the strong hunch that hip-fire bonus = good in VATS, avoiding any mod that reduces hip fire accuracy on my VATS-centric weapon like my 10mm pistol.

Haven't tried auto-weapons because I didn't want to spread perks too thin, rifle/pistol single shot focus has been working well though.

Scopes and the like increase AP costs. Pistols cost less than rifles in general. Not so sure about automatics.

Strange how everyone here is saying that scopes kill VATS accuracy. It's actually the range + accuracy of the weapon that determines VATS performance, but at the cost of AP. I built full sniper and they in fact have the best range in VATS out of any weapons so far for me.

Yes Sniper rifles will have the best range in VATS but try your sniper rifle in VATS at 20 feet from an enemy versus an unmodded shotgun (for example, low range low accuracy). Or a weapon modified for best hip fire accuracy.

Check the hit %'s.

Remmus said in the first posts that ''all vats care about is the guns accuracy stat.''

I noticed that adding a scope increases accuracy stat of the weapon, despite shaving off AP points. So practically, adding a scope adds accuracy in VATS. I personally have 4 shots in VATS with a long scope rifle and most of the time is enough to kill everyone around me, not letting them get close to me (except mole rats, annoying things spawning right next to me 5 at a time). I also have 'Action boy lvl 2' perk witch regenerates AP 50% faster, witch I recommend for people that mostly rely on VATS.

Still, a developer needs to shed some light on this matter. After all, this is Bethesda forums, right ?

I could be wrong. But in my experience trying to use a scope-equipped rifle in VATs does not work out well.

Could be interesting to test with a scope-equipped pistol though.

I messed around with modifying weapons and checking results in VATS last night for about an hour. I came up with some conclusions, and a few questions still linger. Particularly the question of whether or not aiming before entering VATS has any effect on accuracy while in VATS. At first I thought it did because hit chance values changed by up to 20%, later I realized that values may have been changing because I was using turrets near my work bench as targets. Turrets move as they scan, which can change hit percentages depending which way they're facing when you enter VATS. DOH!

But I did affirm or discover some things. I'll go through them with, followed by a short summary. The things I discuss in the list below are referring to effects WHILE IN VATS MODE. Some of this may seem obvious but I figured I'd be thorough.

1. Accuracy helps, scoped weapons do increase hit chances and range, at the cost of AP (Action Points). The bigger the scope, the more accurate it is, the higher the AP cost, resulting in higher accuracy for the price of less chances to fire. Scopes also add range. Where this shines less, and the bonuses diminish, is nearby targets. Max hit chance in VATS is 95%, a high accuracy/range sniper rifle won't give you much accuracy advantage at nearby targets over a lower range/accuracy weapon. It appears that if the target is in range, there's no penalty to accuracy. So at 50 feet, the 10mm Pistol was nearly as accurate as the sniper rifle, but allowed for 11 shots in VATS rather than 2 with the sniper rifle. The advantages of the Pistol in VATS diminished once outside its range value.

2. Most modifications don't appear to be in relation to VATS. For example, modifications that reduce recoil do not appear to effect AP or accuracy in VATS. So when modifying a weapon, reducing recoil say on your sniper rifle is simply so you can quickly acquire your target and aim again. Exceptions to this appear to be with focus, such as the reflex scope(s). I believe focus scopes actually added extra shots in VATS, so reflex scopes are not a bad choice for balance between range/accuracy and efficient use of AP.

3. Other - I noticed the short or stub barrels hurt accuracy and range but added more shots in VATS. So may be good options for close quarters weapons where accuracy at range isn't a factor. The effect isn't that dramatic though, I think it added one extra pistol shot on the 10mm for example. I'd prefer to have much more range/accuracy at the cost of one extra VATS round.

Final thoughts. Most if the weapon modifications are for how weapons behave in free play (not using VATS). A lot of modifications reduce hip fire accuracy but increase overall accuracy. I found this distinction and the fact that the aiming animation while using a scoped rifle went to hip fire (in VATS) confusing, which lead me to attempt these tests. I don't have all the answers I wanted, but generally it appears that a great deal of the modifications where designed more with your personal playstyle in mind than effects in VATS. If you're used to bunny-hopping like a Madman, juking, dodging and weaving while you squeeze off rounds, weapons modified for hip fire accuracy may be your bread and butter. Hip-fire focus appears to cost less AP in VATS as well, but that could be coincidental.

THAT GUY exists. Someone created a video on YouTube where they describe the affects of various mods on AP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9gByrm2ukY

In brief:

Hair Trigger Mods (significantly lower AP), sensitive trigger (from advanced receiver) lowers AP cost.

short light barrel is best for low AP cost. long light is about equal to regular short barrel.

Short stocks have lowest AP cost, most other stocks add 7 AP.

medium magazine is same as stock magazine. Quick eject medium or small is faster. Quick Eject Drum (or large) is same speed as standard or medium magazine.

Reflex sights are best for AP cost & accuracy. Scopes add AP cost , the longer the scope, the more AP cost it adds

My playstyle is heavy into VATS so I am probably rerolling my dude to have the Perception 6 (+3 Night Person, +1 Glasses), and Luck 8 (+1 from Bobblehead) (for critical perks and grim reaper). But I'm also going to likely remove scopes and stocks from the rifles I'm using to see how that improves the number of shots I get in VATS. I will also look to see if going from Calibrated Powerful Receiver on combat rifle to Hair Trigger will give me more shots or not in VATS. Kinda started to get low on .45 ammo from overuse of Combat Rifle so I may switch over to Combat Shotgun with my existing character before I reroll.

Thank you Paydirt!