I guess we have become the industry. We got settlements up and running, recruited settlers built farms and purified water stations. Set up supply lines across the commonwealth. Brought goods to existing buyers/vendors. Everyone one before us cowers under the threat of death if venturing out of their "safe zones". I mean you always find dead settlers inside any industrial type building. That threat alone would be enough to stay home and survive. The Lone Survivor is the industry of the commonwealth.

Someone else in here said it best- fiction is imperfect. Oversight, a decision here and there that this and that was not necessarily needed for the finished product, or an element of life did not add to the enjoyment of the game...

Video Games will never, I feel, perfectly replicate a functional, living, evolving world, it can only offer a simulation, or representation of that world in a static form that only does live and evolve through the progress of the player in minute ways that impact the player.

First off, this being a game set in a different universe with different natural laws, it doesn't actually NEED to conform to reality.

Second, just how many Deathclaws, Super Mutants, Raider Gangs, Feral Ghouls, Rad Scorpions, Radiation Storms etc. did the Industrial Revolution have to contend with and do it where the closest thing to a central authority was the village elders?

A better comparison would be how long did it take for Western Civilization to recover after the fall of the Roman Empire? This is a better comparison, but not a good one. Primarily because the "Fall of the Roman Empire" is kind of a vague term. It can be dated in the 5th Century or the 15th Century depending on how you want to define "Roman Empire".

Oddly, this period between the collapse of the Western Roman Empire (5th Century) and the collapse of the Eastern Roman Empire (Constantinople in the 15th Century) is quite often referred to as the Dark Age in Western Europe. That is 1000 years of regression, not progress, in Western Europe where the people were picking over the bones of Rome. (In and around Rome itself, people had a habit of knocking down Empire structures to use as building materials for their more primitive structures.) This regression occurred in spite of Roman Technology still being in use and being expanded upon in the Byzantine Empire practically RIGHT NEXT DOOR.

There is a substance known as Roman Concrete. Romans used it in just about everything they built was made of it. The knowledge of how to make it was even written down and was salted away as far back as 50 BC. In the 5th Century it stopped being used for construction in Western Europe and wasn't reinvented until the 18th Century (btw, that is 300 years AFTER the Dark Ages ended). What we use today is quite often referred to as Portland Cement. It isn't the same thing as Roman Concrete and in many ways is inferior to Roman Concrete. It took about 150 years to develop. And those dusty scrolls that were written in 50 BC still exist.

There is no doubt that many Romans survived the "Fall of Rome". There is no doubt that many Roman engineers survived the "Fall of Rome". So what do you think that our heroic Roman engineer had as a priority on teaching his kids after the "Fall of Rome"? Was it how to feed themselves and defend against the various bandits roaming the land? Or did he teach them how to mix concrete and use it to build a freaking dome for the Pantheon (which by the way would involve him teaching his kids how to do math with that brain damaged number system)? The people of Western Europe at that time were pretty much stuck in that old adage, "When you are up to your ass in alligators, it is hard to remember that the original idea was to drain the swamp."

The "Fall of America" did not happen over time. It happened over the space of a couple of hours. There is no Constantinople just over the hill that can serve as a shining example of what can be because the "Fall of America" was in reality the "Fall of Everywhere". There is nothing left but the dismembered corpse of What Was. The land and everything that walks on it, tunnels under it or flies over it has been poisoned, twisted and then turned against our species. The people of the wasteland are in the same swamp as the people of the Dark Ages, except that the swamp is irradiated and the alligators in the swamp would be a blessing compared to what ate them.

I have no idea why some people keep insisting that the wasteland would be something other than the absolute hell hole it is (besides, do you people really, really, really want a Fallout game based around a 9 to 5 job in a cubicle farm?) btw, this is not something I am accusing the OP of.

As for a total lack of industry. Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there and we actually do see some of it. As an example: There is a person out there that is canning meat (a minor spoiler: do NOT eat it. It won't kill you but still, don't eat it) and at least one trader is distributing it.

Fallout robots are both quite intelligent and slavishly stupid. Curie is a perfect example. She was set a task to accomplish and told to wait for someone from Vault-Tek to arrive and take possession of the final product. She completed the experiments and then sat there in a locked room. She want to leave and go exploring and she has the capability to open the door (in fact, she is the only one that can open it), but that was not within her instructions. So instead she sat locked in that room with her proverbial thumb stuffed up her thruster as far as it would go for over 80 years. So basically, robots will typically not do anything outside of their instruction set.

This brings up Ironsides and the USS Constitution. Evidence suggests that he recruited (technically speaking, he Impressed them, aka. Shanghaied) his crew by reprogramming them, but that doesn't explain him. The simple answer is that we don't know how he got started on his quest to get the USS Constitution to the Atlantic so he can fight the Chinese, but that is his current instruction set and he will not deviate from it until his instruction set is changed. So the answer as to why functioning robots wouldn't repair and maintain a factory is quite simple, they either weren't instructed to to begin with or they have run out of maintenance supplies. The robots in the cannery are certainly keeping things running for the human that is control of it.

Yes, for us to be able to build settlements, there has to be an ability to take raw materials and turn them into the intermediate materials we use for construction. For game play there is no real purpose of showing how a wall is made or showing the tools required unless we are going to be forced to do those stages. Quite a few people enjoy the building experience as it is now. How many of them would if they were required to use a forge to make metal sheets and a sawmill to make boards or even be required to take all this scrap to someones foundry or sawmill and have it done for them?

There are holes like this in all the Fallout games, there pretty much has to be. Bethesda Game Studios and all other game studios cannot fully flesh out a world space of this size, and even if they could, it probably would not fit on anyone's hard drive. They have to leave gaps that the player's imagination must fill. Now, now you can argue they left out something when they shouldn't have, but you can't really fault them for leaving some things out.

I would imagine some of the larger factions we've seen in the past do have some form of industry. Look at groups like the NCR and Legion from New Vegas (and the founding of the NCR from an earlier fallout game.) You dont get to be that size without having a way of sustaining yourself. They'll have farms and manufacturing capabilities as well as scavenging and/or trading with whoever they meet along the way.

I cant remember who said it (hopefully this jogs someones memory) but an NPC in fallout 4 talked about how several settlements sent representatives and were going to try to form a government. The institute infiltrated it and wiped everyone out, after that nobody wanted to run the risk. No point in making your presence known to an all powerful group who can kill or replace you at any time. Much better to keep your head down and hope nobody notices you. Its the fear of becoming a target that keeps the people eking out their existence in crappy little tin shacks.

From a gameplay perspective I suppose we could imagine the reason nobody has moved back into the cities and started to rebuild and repopulate them is because they were already the centres of population pre=war. Thats where all the people were in the past and thats where most of the ghouls are now.

I agree that there should be some basic industry in Fallout 4 but not the type the OP talks about. Industry like that can only flourish when there is safety, know-how and resources. Safety is not really provided.

There are however a lot of "basic" needs to fullfill. Guns, bullets, armor, clothing, tools, ... There is no indication of manufactoring other than magic-gear (re-)appearing on people I shoot a million times.

The pre-war "resources" are being scavanged and many of the remaining untouched places are filled with creatures unwilling to let someone just walk in and take it for many reasons depending on the type of creature. Would all wastelanders be willing to risk their lifes for nails, tools and the like or would they try to buy or make them instead? Most people prefer to life to fight another day instead of fighting over some dwindeling half working pre-war [censored]. At least the ghouls should have at least a general idea about production even if everyone is too dumb to read or figure [censored] out themselfes.

There are a few places in the CW at the start of the game that support at least some basic manufacturing (besides chems) like the DC. Instead everyone relies on taking pre-war [censored]. I mean my personal need for building material alone should be enough to get at least a few people to work and other people have build things as well. We are not talking about hundreds of people in one factory. We are talking about small scale production. Carpenters, Miners, blacksmiths/ ironworker, ... They are all part of the industry. Yet we see no one. Just enemies upon enemies. What do they even life off. Evil? I haven't seen raiders or gunners trying to even fullfill their own needs. They would eventually at least all run out of ammo because there are just so many of them and I haven't really had the feeling that there was that much trade comming from outside. The caravans are busy enough to just get back in one piece without hauling tons of ammuniton.

The only thing that gets produced are chems. Why? Because there is a need for it. This should not have stopped at chems however. What about alcohol, concrete and furniture that is not 200 years old.

Even if the CW is just some super crazy place for some reason. It makes no sense that the new security provided by the SS and the MM would not provide the background for some industry. The NCR started in a similar way. They owe a big part of their success to the fact that their industry started to work. (Maybe because people didn't need to worry as much about being killed any second). They beat the main chapter of the Brotherhood of Steel because they were able to field a large supplied and outfited army.

Still wonder why an arms manufacturer hasn't arisen in the East like Gunrunners did in the West. Talk about demand.

GR had been manufacturing high grade weapons from pre-war weapon schematics that only they possess, unparalleled security measures, production equipment and facilities, raw materials, highly skilled gunsmiths, and meeting wicked high demand for over a century.

We get bench made pipe guns, a "meat packing plant," some noodles, a few chems, and a little moonshine. Woohoo. With all that static production equipment we see laying around, you'd think someone would have figured out on some semblance of a macro scale, what is in demand (and they are many), and how to profit from it.

Of all the factions, none produce anything but for themselves, save one whose only export is violence (if we include the Gunners as a faction even if un-joinable).

My gosh, here we are in the remnants of the industrial northwest and after 210 years, and we're surrounded by dullards, and are still a scavenger society relegated to pipe guns? GOVERNMENTS have arisen out west for gosh sakes.

Yeah, I know this is a game, and realism is relative to the developer, but some things are positively eye-rolling. How about one industry, and it doesn't have to be guns (although security, shelter and sustenance are primary concerns); maybe a basic tech salvage and re-purposing outfit, or raw materials processers who found design or production schematics deep in the bowels of downtown Boston offices or factories. What about a farming co-op? The gameplay opportunities are certainly there, but it probably wouldn't include shooting people while traipsing around in power armor...so I pretty much answered my own question.

I'm picking this part out to explain some exceptions. Didn't we have to mine the ore to create the ingots, and collect the skins to create the leather, so we could create weapons and armor in TES: Skyrim? There's a very similar process in Guild Wars 2, where you have to mine ore and chop trees to then create ingots and boards to then make weapons and armor as well. So this very well could have been done in Fallout 4...but it wasn't done at all. I guess Beth might have wanted to streamline the creation process and leave the in-between steps unspoken.

I have two theories that go nicely together to explain things:

1) If you pay attention to the dialog from the older Minute Men you will see the decent into lawless chaos is actually recent (as in less than 20 years). Before that the Ironworks was a going concern, as was the Quarry, there was a Fishing Fleet, Scrapyards, and many of those Raider Infested ruins were thriving communities. There seems to have been a sudden influx of Raiders, lead by the Gunners, sometime in the recent past that put an end to this budding Civilization. Industrial facilities and larger farms seem to have been the hardest hit. Just look at all the unused capacity in some of the larger farms (Abernathy, for instance). At one point they were doing SOMETHING with all this land. Then they got knocked back to Substance Farming.

2) The institute. I'm going to go ahead and "Spoiler" this. Most is just opinion but there are enough concrete examples that I don't want to ruin things.

While we're at it why hasnt there been any health care program in fallout 4? I mean I have to pay out of pocket to get the doctor to heal me? Its been more then 200 years I cant believe this travesty!

The Pitt has industry. Really, industry is the only thing The Pitt has. Maybe The Pitt is undercutting the competition and thus driving them out of business? Or maybe The Pitt is actively sending raiders to kill or enslave the competition?

October 2077 Civilization is replaced with savagery.

December 2161 Some poor schmuck gets pushed out of Vault 13 and is sent on a suicide mission to find a water chip. He or she is later known as the Vault Dweller and becomes "The Hero of the Wasteland".

July 2241 Some poor fool who just happened to be a descendant of the poor schmuck ejected from Vault 13 was busy pounding two rocks together is notified to report to the Temple of Trials and then sent out on a suicide mission to recover G.E.C.K. This idiot is known as The Chosen One and eventually becomes "The Second Hero of the Wasteland" on the West Coast.

August 2277 A Boy Named Sue (or maybe a Girl named Bill, the record is unclear) narrowly escapes from 101 with nothing but an old guitar and an empty bottle of booze and starts a search of the honky-tonks and bars to kill the dirty mangy dog that gave him/her that awful name. This person became knows as One-Oh-One, The Kid from One-Oh-One and eventually was known as the Lone Wanderer. He/she is the first "The Hero of the Wasteland" on the East Coast.

It is now October 2287 and a peoplecicle has just thawed out. Maybe this person will become "The Second Hero of the Wasteland" on the East Coast. The jury is still out on that.

Here is he deal. No significant progress can be made without the presence of a "The Hero of the Wasteland". That is an immutable law of the Fallout universe. The West Coast got one 84 years after the bombs dropped and got another 80 years after that. The East Coast had to wait 200 years before they got one. Of course, the West Coast is more advanced than the East Coast. With that much of a head start it is to be expected.

While the heroes did play a part they weren't entirely the cause of New California's rise. The BoS, Gun Runners, Crimson Caravans, the Hub water traders, the NCR, Vault City and numerous other settlements and groups had a hand in it. Honestly, the west coast had an easier time because, well, they had a bigger trade boom then the east did. BoS would sell medical supplies, equipment, low-value tech and stuff like that for food, shady sands would provide food to the regions, hub water merchants provided water and a structured currency, Gun Runners sold guns, Crimson Caravans ran the caravan lines, Vault City provided food and other supplies iirc. Then you had groups like the Followers of the Apocalypse who would go settlement to settlement teaching, providing medical care, stuff like that to the settlers.

Like I said, New California is better off because they were really lucky to get all of that. Not every region will get a Gun Runners or water caravans or large farming communities or tech-dealers or even a large scale caravan operation that would spread trade.

The Pitt DLC from Fallout 3 is all about that, more or less. Steelworks, working ammunition presses, etc. So, it's there. In fact, I wonder what happened to the Pitt in the last ten years after Fallout 3. Is this ex-BoS guy still in charge. Would be cool to know.

I highly doubt the Pitt can savely distribute their wares with all the raiders and supermutants around. I don't think the raiders themselves are distributing gear and ammo among the other raiders. I have not found any dialoge in Bunker Hill regarding some substantial influx of supplies from the Pitt or anything outside of the CW.

I am not so sure about that one. We can only imho only conclude that life got worse in the recent past especially after quinzy. The unused capacity you speak of seems to fit with the settlements because it is one of the few settlements that sells wood on a regular basis and I bet it was easier than in other places to build a huge building with a large steel stable steel structure in place.

That is more likley but even then someone should manufacture things that are needed daily. DC still has a big unused areas where someone could for example build ammo or armor on a larger scale. Nothing big of course just 5 - 10 people who then sell to local traders and the caravans.

A bit of a poor excuse. We have a huge purifier in the former capital. There is no indication of it being destroyed. It would make sense if traders would try to profit from that. I am sure even the most ruthless characters on the east coast like some pure water.

I think the main problem is that the world of Fallout 4 is so unbelivable within it's own universe. There is just a so huge demand for everything ranging from guns to simple food. It makes no sense that we see for example no one cutting wood. Wood is a basic building material and traders have "shipments for sale". There are also a lot of "unseen" settlers in the background of the CW that appear out of nowhere when some esablishes a save spot. Yet all we see are laughably small cities with most people just doing nothing all day.

I already said it in another threat but I think the basic design direction of Fallout 4 is wrong. Instead of focusing on a rich and immersive world we got an open world shooter with awesome level design. Don't get me wrong the game is still fun but it wasn't the game I wanted. Fallout 4 is not able to replace FNV from my personal favorite games despite having easily the potential with all those things I wanted that are now in the game.

None of the games really show trading off the map. FO3 we have the slavers but there's very few places in DC where people seem to have slaves, we know the Pitt buys them but they aren't the only ones. Pointlookout some how manages to get punga fruit to all the food shops in DC without ever leaving the boat...it's not covered because it would be wasted time adding another caravan that just sells punga. We know people do come and go from DC and Boston as there's 3 or 4 people from Boston in DC/point lookout.

To make ammo you need the materials to make the bullets, no where in DC or Boston has that. You need the brass, lead and chemicals to make the case, bullet, propellent and primer. Not something that can just pop in to existence out of no where with none of the basic elements required to make them.

Water purifier in DC is under BoS control, under Lions it was providing free water to the non-hostile towns of DC and not being sold. Not much money to be made when people are giving it away free or any way to make money if the Maxwell now charges as they own it.

I can understand why most aren't chopping wood, there's not that many trees near the 2 default cities and they aren't safe places to go. It would make some sense to see them gathering it in some locations but most they already have a home so no need to build it up or there's other materials nearby they would use like the sheet metal from cars.

I do agree more food and drink would be a good move but they decided it wasn't worth adding a lot of animations and objects just to fill that tiny void that most people don't care about. I'm fine with believing there's a few people in the wasteland distilling alcohol and selling it or making noodles.

There should be people who are saluaging and repairing items outside of bunker hill.

NV did show us a bit because it made sense. The capitl wasteland had the huge problem that no one kept the road clear to allow much trade even inside of the game area. I found F3 a bit to unbelivable as well.
Of course there are materials for bullets. We can craft grenades out of junk. I don't see how a few people wouldn't try to get a semi-permanent (meaning junk) supply of metal and raw resources, some pre-war maschines to process the metal and a chemist to make the the nesessary chemicals. The Pitt has overcome it's own post-war problems in that regard as well. Did you know you can make gunpowder out of urin? I am sure they can come up with something.
I was talking more about the settlements outside of the greater sphere of Lyon's kindness. Traders would have to only transport the water to various communities in the wasteland through the much safer surrounding lands without spending any resources to get the water itself. This is the best szenario a trader could hope for. I am sure Max wouldn't have just begun to hoard all the water for himself when he has an abundance of it. He would have made a deal with these traders to get others thing the BOS needs in exange to access to clean water. That's what I would have done.

That was just an example and I think would chopping is implied with the settlements that sell shipments of wood. I could have used clothing as another example. My point is that the world is not beliveable because it doesn't make much sense from within the universe which is losely based on ours.
I care very much about these small things. They are things that breathe life into the world and it shuts the alarm in my head off that X makes no sense. I can accept super mutants, fusion powered cars, etc as part of the world I play in but I have a hard time accepting no basic industry/ production and raiders/ monsters everywhere as a world that makes sense.

Pitt had a large pre-war industry with foundries which weren't in bad shape and it's not said it they were bullet producing pre-war or not Plus a power defending it, DC didn't have that. Making gunpower would be the eaisest can get 2 of the 3 components rather easy but not sure how easy it is to get the sulfur in DC or Boston. Without BoS being in power you wouldn't have the people or defence to establish it. Plus you'd need to have some knowledge of chemistry.

Making small scale explosives is a lot easier than an industrial set up mass producing bullets as that's how their needed.

Traders couldn't just turn up at the purifier and take the water, BoS controlled it and had their own caravans who took the water around. You'd have to go outside of the BoS terrain (so basicly outside of DC) to find someone to sell the water to, that means you have to travel for longer which costs and then pay for protection and the BoS were getting attacked in their area. Maxwell wouldn't need to horde it but could start charging for it, could exchange food, work and so on and use it to build BoS power.

I wouldn't look too much in to the shipments, I don't think there's anyone out their on an oilrig sending shipments of it to Boston. Bethesda didn't think that much in to it, it seems to be more for settlment building.

Clothes as I pointed out earlier would be leather based which exists somewhere for the leather armour in game, raider armour and metal armours. There's no animals in DC or Boston that could be used for wool, no plants seen that produce cotton. Best case seems to be the clothing stores that patch up and repair pre-war clothes or maybe some that could have looted rolls of fabric.

Local industries would make sense such as the cannery but creating an entirely new one with no pre-existing one is just as alarming.

*forgot to say DC does now seem to have industry under the BoS now they've been able to protect and form some sort of nation, allowing them to send the expedition to Boston.

It makes no sense to look for sense in FO4 that much. The OP is right that you needed a developed industry to build lots of the stuff you can build. That would result in a different society.

The society you see would not be able to produce lots of the stuff you see. Automatic weapons with homemade (?) ammo without any misfire ever for example, something we are not able to produce. Automated turrets? Lots of vertibirds? The Prydwen? The combat would be much more primitive, no laser and plasma rifles, less guns, more bows and crossbows and clubs/swords perhaps. I would prefer such a game but it would not be Fallout.

At least I have plants with leaves and pale green gras thanks to a mod.

Well we do have a school in DC and a few factories around. The problem is not having no one to defend a potential buisness but rather the problem that there shouldn't be that many people around to attack these buisnesses with no buisnesses around. They would mostly lack the means to mount a true attack anyway.

One step at a time. I think places like the car factory should have some maschines that could be modified to produce the nessesary bullet parts for a larger production.

There was a huge pool of purified water. Anyone who wanted to could take some when Lyon was in charge. That's what I am getting at. This should have attracted some people to profit from it. The BOS distributed it because the roads are dangerous and the player could have killed all caravans by now.

There are more ways to make oil. You can make it ingame without a problem. You don't even need a perk for it.
The proplem is that there is no representation of anything. We are left guessing.
Best first sentence ever. Though I can't just shut of my brain while playing. Just not my cup of tea. I am compelled to question almost everything to the point where I could potentially be murdered by people who have to directly work with me.

Back to the topic.

I am willing to belive that the SS is just reusing things in the wasteland instead of smelting stuff down and forging new stuff.

We already know a few places where some industry is set up and working. The NCR and the Pitt. Someone already mentioned that the BOS must have established something in DC to have that much stuff to work with compared to F3. So even in a post-war which started out as a bunch of primitives is almost quickly able to reform.

The Prydwen itself existed before the BOS took it out for their joy ride to the Commonwealth plus is likley that they have control of the capital wasteland. This means they have access to "raw" materials, technology/ existing maschines and a suitable workforce.
I agree that there should be more primitive weapons around if no is around to make stuff that's is the exact reason why I said that world doesn't make sense. If there were some explantion on where all that stuff comes from. But there is just nothing. A few workshops somewhere in the CW. Maybe even used by raiders. That's all it would have taken them.

Umm... there is a guy who took over and uses a meat canning factory...

This^ and their seem to be a major lack of organization with all of these spread out settlements and 2 very small cities for their to be major industry, the big factories would need to have about 50 people Manning them and maintaining them with a constant wage or other means of payment which everyone seems unwilling to do, all of these small farms (and for some reason roaming settlers) seem to be keeping real progress from taking place.

By that logic no progress would ever take place. Someone would first gather all the stuff necessary to start at least some small scale production and expand later. 5 - 10 people are enough to get post-war production to the correct level and keep it there. There is no need to produce thousands upon thousands of products. There are way less people after the war.


You are thinking way to modern. Modern factories became that big because they were in the right enviroment.

yes that is true, they simply do not have an overwhelming need for mass production in the Commonwealth until they have a way to transport goods to other states that need it affordably.

if the BoS could make a big ass flying fortress and repair a badass giant robot, surely they could revive industry.

they have the means and the excuse.

they want to recover all technology so humanity doesn't screw up all over again, so industry would be a good way of creating new technologies, like the enclave did when they created their own power armor.

The BOS have preserved the technology and will release it as necessary and when the land is more stable, more stability is down to player's role play..... that is what the game is all about..... it's madness to release industrialisation into a war zone. Weaponry and armor for survival yes, you've got that with their help.

Up to the player to bring more stability to the land....... Raiders, Mutants, Ghouls and whatever........

Take the modern world, why isn't there industrialosation in many parts of the present world, and they haven't even been nuked, nah, this scenario is 'real' enough, and there should not be industrialisation, not just yet.