Hey everybody

You all know the jokes about romancers of a certain companion like doing it with "robots", the ingame tales of family members being replaced by synths for a long period of time... it made me wonder, just how much "biology" is in a synth? Synthetic does not equal "made of metal and/or plastic" after all, given we've already developed synthetic beef steak, which is for all intents and purposes "organic".

Aside from sixual intercourse (unless they focus infiltration on particularly loveless relationships) of course; really basic biological necessities being absent would be bound to raise suspicion eventually, wouldn't it? Actually using the potty after all requires a multitude of functions to happen inside one's body (in case you're still with me), so they couldn't have just stopped at an acccurate, soft "exterior hull", could they?

The loading screen tooltip claims of course Gen 3s being virtually indistinguishable from humans, but I just felt what's stated ingame and among the community is often conflicting. My personal interpretation would be that of the synthetic beef, i.e. perfectly human inside and outside; except that bio matter was crafted, rather than grown naturally by conception.

Thoughts? Or maybe the game delivers a perfectly thorough explanation and I just missed it?

P.S.: I know there is lots of potential for terrible misuse of terms in the post, for which I apologize in advance and hope it still got my point across.

P.P.S.: I would still not romance said companion, yet because they strike me as virtually an infant. My feelings are fatherly/brotherly, and romantic thoughts feel exploitative. But that's just me being myself, no judgement intended.

For all intents and purposes, Gen 3 synths seem to be at least 95% - 99% organic. As you stated, Gen 3s are physically indistinguishable from humans. This gives rise to a fair amount of the synth paranoia troughout the Commonwealth; anyone could be a synth, and you wouldn't know it (unless you killed them and rooted around in their corpse, that is). Furthermore, you can see first hand synth production in the Robotics Lab, in the Institute. The machines assemble them by first arranging the skeletal stercture, then "stitching" all the soft tissue into place, then finally "jump-starting" the biological/bio-electrical processes before a final dip into a "skin pool". In addition, if you pass a speech check with Glory, she talks about how synths are assembled.


But it's evident that synths aren't completely organic. Aside from the Synth Components found on (some) synth corpses (Bethesda seems to have forgotten to put components into the inventories of a bunch of them), we (understandably) never see what the synth nervous system looks like. Seeing as how the body has to function like a normal human's would, I believe that the spinal column and peripheral nervous system are just as biological as the rest of the body, but I think that a fair portion of, if not the entire, brain is robotic/mechanical. I support this with a couple of facts: on some the terminals in the Institute, they talk about various upgrades and augmentations to the synths, things like upgrading "hardware", "patching software", and how sunths get wiped and reset. While alterations could be made to biological systems (especially in a sci-fi setting like this), I would think that such things would be simpler if they were performed on a computer-like structure; I'm hardpressed to think of how complicated it would be to "patch new software" into an organic brain, plus reset synths are able to remain standing despite losing consciousness.


As another piece of evidence, lets look at Nick Valentine. For intents and purposes, Nick's body is a Gen 2, albeit with some probably upgrades seeing as how he's a prototype between Gens 2 and 3. That being said, his "brain"/CPU is going to be similar, if not identical, to other Gen 2s. Yet within it is the complete memories, personality, etc of the prewar detective Nick Valentine. Seeing as how a CPU roughly akin to a Gen 2's is capable of emulating the mind of human, it wouldn't be too far a stretch, I think, to think that Gen 3's would employ a similar unit with minimal need for biological neurons.


But I could be wrong about all this.

I suspect it's only the 'synth component' that is non-organic...the rest is probably stem cell-petrie dish organics....or perhaps they are the ones picking up all those corpses I've left behind me, and they are doing the Dr Frankenstein thing with them...I do keep seeing the same faces again, after all.

I once read a sicnce article where robots could eat plants to brake down the substances and produce energy. If the same tech., or something similar was used in synth technology, the Institute could probably make it possible for units to drop little synth deuces.

Thanks for the answers.

I just remembered other things Curie said - how she'd have to remember to breathe, or otherwise "no more Curie". A fully-functioning, because vital respiratory system is one huge clue. Secondly, she complains about how humans "even get anything done", since she were "sleepy, hungry, and then sleepy again". Sure both of it could just be eleborate simulation software for vegetative functions programmed so Synths have no choice but to abide, yet I thought it was noteworthy.

Well, even with present day AIs we can reach some astonishing results. And then again, it is always a matter of perception - I think real science is long ready to build a foolproof "random dude at the gas station" AI and no one would be none the wiser. The human mind sure is sensational, but only if you were to really explore and "test" all of it.

They're human enough that they do all things humans do. Harkness must can grow facial hair if he shaves.

In terms of Fallout 4 Synths, there's not much to speculate about. If you've been to the Institute, you'll know exactly how they are made and programmed.

They're physically built in a 3 step process, then programmed.

1: Skeleton assembled from pre-made parts (it's not certain if these are actual bones and marrow, or if they're some sort of composite. I'm guessing the latter.)

2: Flesh is added along with veins and nervous system (and I imagine internal organs as well, but you don't clearly see that.)

3: The body is submerged in a pool of plasma to finalize skin and exterior.

The synth is now physically complete and mobile and steps into the programming room.

In speaking to some of the scientists you also learn that basically anyone with a laptop can wipe a synths memory. You can encode a new memory or you can reset to factory settings.

It was a bit of an eye opening experience actually, after all the discussions on these boards. I was originally of the mindset that a synth was nothing but a robot. The game then sorta won me over, with all the Railroad speeches, and I was kinda leaning towards synths also being human. Until I went to the Institute, where it's made perfectly clear that they're basically an advanced iPhone that can be wiped programmed however you like. Nothing human there, only in appearance, and basically just an advanced computer.

There not, they are machines programmed to behave like humans. This was very clear for me at the end of a certain quest while trying to do the good guy approach and just how... Programmed of a response I got from something... I ended up shooting it after saving it... As it was really clear just how much was programming...

Sorry I am vague here. But I am trying my best not to put in any spoilers.

But isn't that really only the introduction to the age old question of sci-fi - what's it really which defines a human?

If the body is a perfect replica (what's a replica for that matter) and the mind's only difference is that there are more thorough ways to delete it than there are for born humans - if they behave unobstructed by computer intervention, what is the difference really?

Glory (who ought to know) says that synths aren't human because she's seen the machine where they're made. All due respect to Glory, but I think she's confusing the method of manufacture with the item being constructed. To my mind a coat made on an assembly line will keep you as warm as one where someone hunted the animal using only a combat knife, tanned the leather himself and then hand stitched the garment.

Interestingly, both Father and Maxon dodge the question of free will in synths. You can ask Father and his answer is "we created them so we own them". Now to my mind if he'd thought they weren't self willed conscious beings he'd have said so. His evasiveness only makes sense if he's trying to avoid a damaging admission.

Similarly Maxson doesn't claim synths aren't sentient. In fact he says that he finds the idea of self willed machines to be dangerous and abhorrent - suggesting that he too believes them to be sentient.

So: biologically, they're human. No one seems to question their sentience, and we see them demonstrate the capacity to love and experience intuition. "Humanity" is always going to be a matter of definition, and I'm sure someone will come up with one identical biology and intellectual and emotional capacity somehow remains lacking.

Personally I'd have said that they're close enough that we should afford them the same courtesies as we do humans created by the traditional method.

That's a good question, which I think mankind will need to define as technology definitely brings us closer to artificial humans and intelligence. I think we will need to define a new category of existence for such beings for they are not quite robot and not quite human.

Here here.


i didn't really say it in my post, but I'm of the mind that even if synth consciousness can be objectively categorizd as different from human consciousness, then it's a good enough facsimile that distinction between the two is pedanticism.

Good subject , anyone heard of phsyco-cybernetics ? Is a paper written back in the 70's . It speaks of how a human brain/body and a computer acts just the same . It is electrical impulses that passes info to the next step . then to the process that the impulses was for ,, lets say to move a finger or just smile , take a step . Only difference is a comp is setting on a desk and the human is running it . still both are processing info in the same manner ..

but , the real jest of it is " what effect does this have on a human that knows that his/her friend has been replaced by a machine " and both are functioning the same .. Rut Roh , we in deep do-do now ..

Except humans brain requires more area and comp does not with mini stuff now and 10nm processing .

smile a synth maybe writing this to ya ... LOL

Synths are edible, I assume they taste like tofurkey.

you need to watch ex machina to answer that question

Well, to me it came to self-awareness and the ability to choose a future for the self...whatever that "self" may be. Sure Maxson and Father both (ironically) only think of them as machines, but there is more than enough in-game evidence that the latter gen synth were fully self aware (examples: felt fear at an impending loss of "life," felt emotion in general (Curie is a perfect example of the struggle of coming into contact with emotion for the first time); were inquisitive as to what their individual purpose might be; had the ability to see themselves as part of a larger existence and held abilities and talents to contribute to it; had the desire to determine their own path of existence [Freedom and self-determination]).

Even if we can wipe them, the new identity will still become a new self-ware life with a new program, even if different than the one that was previously wiped. Humans lose consciousness or suffer amnesia, and sometimes those conditions are permanent...that's probably the closest I can come to an anology.

Even if Nick held the memories of another entity, in some way Nick was THAT entity, he operated off those memories, and those memories animated him...gave him purpose. He reflected on those memories and felt sadness that they weren't actually "his." But, in effect, as he comes to see, they were, because they were his to guard and use now, for whatever purpose he determined.

It's quite difficult to argue that they (Gen 2 upgrades like Nick and all Gen 3s) were not self-aware, and to me, as I said, that was the key.

Having said all of this barely legible gibberish, whether all of this is a good idea or not, I won't dare touch here, because I think there is a serious and legitimate debate to be had about it all...but as for the synths as presented in game, to me they are quite self-aware, capable of self-determination, and in the simplest form...yes...human.

Regardless of my personal real life attitude toward this, I will be doing a playthrough of both camps, just to get the full Fallout story on the matter.

yea I did that , flattened everything . 1st playthru

Oh yea, like the Crow and Guardian pic's