Simple is not necessary worst. Quit the opposite, often it is better. You have to look at the things in context. Good game should be rich in context but simple to use (play). Of course when context is made simple, especially main context, like new dialogues, than it is for the worst.

There might be situations, when two options YES and NO are perfectly appropriate and logical. In fact it's the case very often. there might be situations when single option is appropriate. Why to force yourself in to FOUR responses all the time? Voice-overs are expensive, both in development time and money. Bethesda in effect spend lot of time and money to make dialogues worst. Doesn't make any sense to me, especially since you can black out positions on a wheel too. Whitcher does that all right.

At first I was sure I'd hate the new perk (really a perk/skill system) system, but I have to admit it's growing on me. While I still wish there were Perks and also Skills, mixing them like this seems to work. I've retired 4 characters now (each at around 35-50 level) and the system worked well. I will say however that some skills just seem 'required', making a lot of similarities between every character. I'm doing something different now with a character that does no crafting at all and cooks all their healing items. So far it's pretty different.

I never liked the old Karma system, where nuking a town full of people equaled giving a beggar ten bottles of water. That system was just completely broken. Glad to see it gone. Also never liked the idea that there was some magical number floating over my head so NPC's would know if I'm a good guy or a bad guy even if they had never met me before.

The four choice dialog system is awful. No question. I can't count how many times I've been completely surprised by what has come out of my PC's mouth. And as stated, the choices as way too limited. And really no evil option. You just can't do it.

The quest are very limited in this game. After 1500+ hours in Skyrim I still feel like I've not done everything, seen everything. A couple hundred hours in FO4 and I feel like I am completely finished. There are just no more new quests to find and just repeating radiant quests is loosing it's fun fast.

Ah, Bethesda. The masters of unintended comedy


"New"? The previous game they made that was more complex than it's predecessor was http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Daggerfall That was criticized for being too complex, i believe? They apparently haven't gotten over that yet

And if you want CoD crowd, then you just make a "Modern Military Shooter"; fridge-sized white men shooting at brown people, only it turns out it was really the Russians all along

I'm just saying its par for the course to break up what is otherwise an NPC info dump by giving the player the illusion of a response. Where no matter what you say, the dialog doesn't actually branch. The NPC just effectively goes back to their monologue.


I thought this was common knowledge.


The point is I could find examples in any RPG of that. Most conversations in these games just serve to give you back story or exposition and they use some smoke and mirrors to make it seem like you have more facility in it than you really do.


Pick any game and you'll find examples of that. Or how many games where there is a break in the dialog and you only have the option to tell the NPC to continue the story. I could find 5 examples of that in any game.


Sure, more.meaningful options would be good. But if you're going to single out F4 for that, then you can't turn a blind eye to its preponderance in every other game or pretend it's the exception and not the rule.

I don`t like that using any skills does not add you experience for these certain skills ( can`t remember where it worked this way, in Fallout 3 or Vegas). It was clever and realistic. Now you are limited with perks and it feels not so interesting. Also some perks feel too unrealistic. Breathing under water ? Impossible. A diving mask or a ghoul mask were much better and made more sence . It made the game more interesting (that you could earn some unique ability in quests instead of "buying" them for your xp). But the FPS side of the game is really better in Fallout 4. I used VATs 80% of time in Fallout 3, now I use VATs only when I want to protect my settlers from my friendly fire and to kill flying insects. On the other side it makes VATs perks almost useless. The settlement thing is a great idea on my view, though it needs polishing. But the roleplaying side is weak. I forgot about that kidnapped baby as soon as I went out from the Vault . Dialogs are too simple now. Also the fact that you can`t even read what you are going to say is annoying.. Another annoying thing is that some items don`t spawn unless you take the related quest. It worked same in Vegas and it made the game less friendly to exploring. I really enjoyed exploring in Fallout 3 and it was nice that I could collect most of quest`s items before getting the related quests (So I did not have to go and clean the location again and again, it`s just boring). But in general I really enjoy this game, settlement thing is very addictive, spent hours building them. Some npc are great - Nick Valentimes is an example , iconic, with a good sence of humour. And Dogmeat is adorable. Some quests are really interesting. So well..The game has some weak points but it does not make the whole thing bad. It`s still a great game.

Thank you for all the support and feedback, The main point of me making this article to be honest is because I would HATE to see a Elder scrolls game end up like this one. Elder scrolls is my favourite franchise and to be honest if it was like fallout 4, I just straight up wouldn't buy it.

as for the posts defending the game, like I said, it can be summed up in one sentence that's tossed around a lot lately

Fallout 4 is a good game, it's just not a good FALLOUT game

*sigh* Elder Scrolls - I played all the games from Arena over Daggerfall up to Skyrim. Morrowind was the highlight of the series, since then they have lobotomized and dumbed down their own system.

I think for the next ES game they will not need a dice, a coin flip will be enough...

ES just now is missing nearly all innovations they introduced with Arena and their new system. Only the world and background is still present, a pale shadow of what it once was. The rest is thoroughly 'consolized' - no offense to console players, because I think most of them would want it different too.

Look what they did to the Fallout system, just after their first game (FO3), where they were quite true to the system, except small things. Even the new BoS, which many people criticized was possible, since it was only the DC chapter. Now we have a more true BoS, but no real Fallout any more, no karma, no six, no skills, ....

I am not in disagreement here, I am just wondering why forcing four -no more and no less, options in every single dialogue in game? Half the dialogues would do with two and I would be perfectly fine with that, because it makes sense. There are plenty of cases when all I need to tell NPC to go an and continue telling me what he is supposed to tell me. It's perfectly OK. The resources they would save, could have being used to make other half of the dialogues more interesting and branching.

Ehh... I mean I'd certainly have liked to see more branching and such. I'm not going to argue they blew me away there.


But it probably takes more time to write and code those branches. I don't think the voice acting was the detrimental factor as far as that goes.

It certainly was not, given they voiced over 4 choices in every response within every dialogue in game -twice over (one for male and one for female). Which is what doesn't make sense to me because voice-overs are supposedly excuse for more simple dialogues compared to previous Fallout.

Now don't take me wrong, I was playing Fallout 1 and 2 back at the time they went out. I don't find quests in Fallout 4 any worst then they were in original Fallouts. I also prefer simpler quests which works before something complex which is full of bugs like NV. That thing newer got fixed. But dialogues in 4 are disappointment. Fact that you don't know what you are going to say before you say it is fail on it's own.

A lot of good points in the original post and I have to agree with a lot of them.


The missing skills is really annoying for me. I found it rather odd that my character, the wife, could use any type of weapon with no training at all. Sure it could be argued that her husband could have taught her. But explain the mini-gun, missile launcher, energy weapons and how to disarm traps and mines. Oh, right its from a perk and not an actual SKILL. Perks should be just that a benefit not a replacement for skills.


The two parents each have different backgrounds. The husband is ex-military and the wife is a lawyer. Each should have started off with a point in a few distinct skills. For example the husband would get small guns, explosives and melee and the wife with barter, speech and unarmed. This would at least give a little replay value with just the parents, at least until they leveled up a bit. Unlike Fallout 3 and Vegas these characters didn’t have time to learn skills (either from plot events before leaving the vault or already being a survivor) while they were sleeping.


The dialog choices was also a bit of a disappointment. They should have had studied Mass Effect on how to do this instead of what we got and yes that would include karma choices. It doesn’t help that no matter what you choose you still get pretty much the exact same answer. There are also very few options to use charisma or intimidation/persuasion skills.


I do like my voiced character. But I can understand the preference to have it be a silent character with your own voice.


My biggest issues with the game was you didn’t have any time in Sanctuary before the bombs fell. There was so much potential to learn about your neighbors and more importantly form some sort of emotional bond with your spouse and kid. It was all create your character with some dialog, look in on the rug rat, meet the robot, answer the door and run like hell. How is a player even supposed to care about what happened to their family if you don’t even get to know them? I feel more emotionally attached to the dog than my spouse and kid and know more about the dog.


As for Armor’s comment about Bethesda taking risks and making changes. That’s fine to do but don’t destroy the base game like skills and perks to do so or streamline it so badly its no longer a role playing game. EA/BioWare screwed up the Mass Effect games in the same way, for me at least. They turned a sci-fi role playing game into a shooter with some skills to choose from when you earned enough points to level them up. If its not broke, don't mess with it.

WOW! The amount of vitriol in this thread.

IMO:

1) I don't care. I enjoy F4 just the way it is. Dialogue choices and all.

2) Has anyone TRIED to be evil? Sure there aren't dialogue choices, but, it's really not that hard to just be nasty through your actions.

3) This is a Fallout game. Title Fallout 4. There have been vast improvements and some weird choices, but it is still a Fallout game and those of us, or at least me, that enjoy Fallout's find it to be just another version.

It's not Dark Souls (thank God!).

I love F4, just as I have loved every other Fallout and every other Beth game.

It has it's flaws, but so do Witcher, Dragon Age, Dark Souls and any other game in the genre.

Nothing is perfect and never will be.

Why argue how high you can level when it depends entirely on how long one is willing to take to do that? Besides, OP's argument is about Skills vs Perks, not level ceiling.

Again, once you look at the Perks list, it's clear that each one awards specific skills, and it's made clear what they are. The only non intuitive part is knowing what Perks are attached to the headers when you allot the 21 points at the start of the game.

FO4 solves many of the problems the prior titles had with the streamlining of attributes, especially the tedious grinding. You make it sound like most complain about the new system, but I see more people praising it than complaining about it, and the over 7 times as many Very Positive reviews as FO3 had on Steam tends to clearly show that.

I may agree with some of your points, besides the karma system which i do not miss at all.

To have anything indicizing whether you'd be a good guy or a bad one looks childish and semplicistic to me, rather than improve depth and consequences.

I don't know anything about the new systems in Fallout 4, but from most of the Steam PC gamer reviewers the one thing I see the most the is not positively reviewed and disliked is the dialogue system, the dialogue wheel, and the story.

Even a bunch of the Steam PC gamer reviewers who positively review Fallout 4 like saying Fallout 4 has the best combat system compared to all of the other Bethesda Game Studios developed video games say the dialogue wheel is bad, etc and so on.

On Dialog, I would not put too much stock in reviews if they're vague, and pay attention to what is said specifically about it if they aren't. Reason being, many complain about side quests, and especially, repeat side quests. Most side quests, unlike deeper story quests, tend to have the same simple generic dialog. And don't forget that story and dialog content is probably THE most personal preference of any features.

My personal preferences in RPGs regarding story, dialog, and leveling, is first and foremost, minimal grinding, while maintaining enough story elements and significant characters that you stay immersed, without feeling like you're laboring through leveling and conversations. Plus a game like this has to have good atmosphere, and it's definitely got that nailed.

FO4 is THE first FO game that really accomplishes flowing, immersive gameplay, yet it's still got plenty of content to it from attributes to story, to characters. The only time it gets a bit annoying is some of the bugs (of which they're busy fixing), and certain repeat tasks if you hang around Preston too much.

This and their The Evil Within were both sleeper titles for me that I almost passed on, and have ended up spending countless hours playing. They definitely don't get some of the little things right, but the most important things, the ones that keep you immersed, they do.

For me when playing RPG video games well written or very well written storylines for quests with good dialogue matter, then gameplay mechanics matter, then skills matter, then exploration matters, and graphics matter last.

My point was not so much the preferences, I was stating mine merely so you'd know what type of player was saying it.

We all like good stories, yet can disagree a lot on what a good or bad one is. Same with how dialog is structured. Some people just love to wade through tons of text, others don't.

It's clear to me that what they did was focus mainly on what was upsetting to most in prior titles, and streamlined it to make it less of a chore to play. So naturally the combat, allotment of attributes, etc, are the most changed.

It's also clear to me that the reason FO4 has SO many more Very Positive reviews on Steam than FO3, is not just it's improved aesthetics, because the graphics always improve over time, and it's still got some shortcomings there. I think it's mostly the refined gameplay.

skills are not removed from the game, actually its a lot harder to become a jack of all trades, in fallout 3 it was pretty easy to raise most all your skills to 100 by level 20 or 30, thats not the case in fallout 4, i agree the side quests aren't as good and dialogue is simplified, its not a perfect game but its still pretty fun and i like the dense city areas, the variety of dungeons are decent, challenging enemies especially early on, so i do agree with some of your points but i do like the perk system over the skill system for leveling, i think they did a good job on that and you start with a lower special also, which i like, makes it a lot more difficult to become overpowered too early although you still end up pretty powerful.

But there is a problem with making things too simplified in most RPGs. If you remove all UI on the screen and everything is available only through the Pip-boy, then most players would be stuck especially on Survival. Not being able to see the Health Bar or AP bar would make the game more realistic, but there would be far too many times that most players don't bother checking the Pip-boy to see if they should run or fight.

Ah! But there's the rub. The majority of players would not want that. We live in a dumbed down world where everything needs to be spoon fed to many people and that includes players.

As game companies try to broaden their bases they often forget that more experienced gamers don't necessarily need the simplification.

I understand why they do what they do. I may not always approve of it, but, making and selling games is about making money, and, to do that, sometimes you need to do things that aren't always everybody's cup of tea.

I agree with you that things could be different, but I'm not going to argue. I'm in the 70's now and cake-walking through things generally speaking and am haven't even completed Bunker Hill. I'm having fun, but, as an experienced gamer, I'm not as challenged on any difficulty level as I could be. My other 1/2, is having a heck of a time on normal. This is their first Fallout game, ever. It's not easy for them and they're in their 50's.

To each his own, I guess. My Misha is having a great time and is extremely experienced in other games (all of the Batman games, and a number of other franchises). Fallout is just different, and I would suspect, the developers are trying to bring in more people like my Misha. That's why they simplified things. It would simply be too complicated and confusing for inexperienced folks.

I love the current idea of using Companions as a different approach to Karma.

In Fallout 3, I didn't like how the Gods of the universe judged you with their all knowing eyes and assigned a Karma rating. If no one is in the room when you stole something, that that is between you and yourself. You don't need the universe to tell you if you're 'bad' or not. You know what you did! Or more realistically, you convinced yourself you needed it more than them

But I LOVE how your Companions have an interest in how you conduct yourself, and just as in real life, I love how it might make you 'change' your behavior when they are around. AFter all, if you want somthing from somebody (their perk) or need they're assistance, it's only human to 'play their game' for a while. Or if it really bothers you that Preston 'doesn't approve' of your actions, either ignore him, or don't bring him along. That alone feels like real life to me.

From what I've seen, the dialogue system options were more like: Yes, Yes, Yes if you give me more money, and No (Yes).