Hi. The reason I am posting this topic despite there being another topic already open on this discussion, is that the developers already responded to the other thread by raising the cap from 10 dwellers to 25. I think it wise to therefore create a new topic to underline the issue, lest they think this discussion is now over, or problem solved. Many people are still complaining in http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1539170-explorer-limit-ruins-the-game/, and I don't want it to fall on deaf ears.

The community has spoken loud and clear that any limitation on the number of dwellers exploring the wasteland is outright unacceptable and completely ruins the endgame or any reason to play beyond reaching a full vault.

I would really like a comment from a bethesda rep or developer explaining why this limit was imposed in the first place, and how they plan to go about fixing it. Again, increasing this number to some other arbitrary number is NOT a fix. Players should be free to decide how many dwellers they send into the wasteland, up to and including the entire population of their vault. If the entire vault dies in the wasteland, well, that's the overseer's prerogative, isn't it?

the vaults were never meant to save anyone....

I'm actually saddened to say this: After days of the forum thread on the explorer cap growing with players and fans petitioning; after the developers posting that they were listening; after pages upon pages of pleading for at least an explanation, update 1.21 neither answered nor addressed the matter.


Before update 1.2, I had 50+ maxed explorers combing the wastes for Legendary gear; now, 40+ are forced to sit in the vault. I had my vault running like a finely tuned, efficient machine; now I'm forced to keep everyone in storage. Why? The only answer so far has been silence.


For late-game players, there's now little reason to continue. Even after carefully and strategically planning, rebuilding, and fully upgrading my vault, my "caps" are maxed and so serve no purpose (as does, thus, the introduction of the Mysterious Stranger). All I had left was to collect the remaining gear. Due to the explorer cap, that's not even possible.


The issue has become as frustrating as it is confusing. Todd Howard said at the Fallout Shelter launch announcement that there would be no paywalls. What are we to make of this cap or the decrease of Legendary drops from the wasteland? Now the only way to get them is through "Lunchboxes," which already sport minuscule drop rates. Furthermore, @Gstaff said they were reading the comments. What are we to make of the silence? It implies avoidance of the issue. What are we to make of the lack of notice in the update notes for 1.2 & 1.21? The community is left to inform one another instead of Bethesda taking responsibility. In fact, there's a sad irony in how the update notes for both version 1.2 & 1.21 proudly declare "Continued general maintenance to the Vault simulation. Because when you speak, Vault-Tec listens!" Then again, Vaul-Tec is a fictional company, so story-wise it very well may "listen"; unfortunately, that statement says nothing about Bethesda's interest or intention to do so.


Honestly, I've been a huge supporter of Bethesda, especially because of their attention to and support of the community--exemplified in their encouragement of modding. I put a sizable sum of money into this game, preordered multiple copies of Fallout 4 for different platforms (and a Pip-Boy Edition as a keepsake), and even preordered the special Loot Crate. I don't intend to return any of it, and I'm no less grateful for the experiences I've had because of Bethesda. Right now, I'm just...disappointed.


Bethesda, I still believe in you: you have been and can be better. Show us that. Answer us.

I have a sneaking suspicion that I know the answer as to why, but I want to hear them say it, if it's true...

They don't want people to keep playing late game, because the incentive to pay money for lunchboxes goes away when you stop expanding and turn tot he wasteland. They want people to get frustrated and give up on their vault, and go start a new one, where the temptation to buy lunchboxes will be there. They've fallen to the money-grubbing tactics of freemium games and don't want to let player enjoyment get in the way of their cash cow.

If they can't provide a better explanation, then I have to assume this is true, and Bethesda as a game company is no longer deserving of my respect, or my money, on any grounds.

I lost most interest in the game, and stopped playing for several days since the limit came with update 1.2.

I regularly had about 75 explorers in the wasteland, with both of the vaults I've worked on and built up since day one, and, I had zero problems.

Now that the game has been neutered, I only recovered a little interest after the Halloween Decorations were reported.

Still, the limit on explorers is disappointing.

Out of sheer frustration, I'd be tempted to agree; but, Bethesda has shown themselves better before: they've resisted the industrywide trends of implementing Digital Rights Management (DRM), which harms the customer rather than protecting against piracy; they've encouraged the modding community by supplying them with creation kits; they've integrated suggestions from their customer base into the mechanics of each open-world game they come out with; and they've continued these trends, on average, consistently over the years since Fallout 3 (which launched in December of 2008), None of these acts are minor, as there are only a select few major developers who can boast as much. For all of this I am grateful, and I firmly hold that they deserve the opportunity to give their side. However, therein lies the issue: no one from Bethesda has stepped forward to engage in dialogue on the matter or even offer an explanation, which is both infuriating and saddening.


While the situation remains incredibly frustrating, to say the least, I'm doing my best to keep from simply letting my ire get the best of me. I realize that I am one paying customer out of many, and that I am not the center of the world, let alone even Bethesda's aims. I acknowledge that they are a business in the midst of readying for a massive launch of the highly anticipated iteration of a major title. Nonetheless, I find my position a bit complicated. To explain by way of example, I care about my friends, but that care is what can make dealing with them very frustrating. I want to see what is good realized for them, but I can't help but sometimes be completely bewildered by their choices. If I didn't care, then not only would I not say anything, I wouldn't even feel anything. I am completely aware of how much the fact that I actually care about a company conflicts with the idea that I am merely a customer for their business, which has (implicitly, at least) a goal in profiting. I more than see the ridiculousness of it; but, I do not––and refuse to––admit that this care is worthless.


Why? It's not merely gratitude, but rather that their interaction with the gaming community has been a go-to example for how so many major AAA game developers should behave. That's not to say Bethesda is perfect; just that they have definitely raised the bar in my own mind for what game developers are and should be, especially in a market that is rife with less-than-respectable practices (e.g. always-online DRM, paywalls, freemium models, day-one DLC, ignoring patches to work on DLC/micro-transaction items, bait-and-switch marketing, low quality products at full price/top-billing, game-breaking glitches at launch, differing/arbitrary platform-specific spec caps, broken/subpar ports, Kickstarter campaigns for funding already funded games, etc.). Indeed, the very fact that Bethesda allows for the modding community to police itself, rather than employing an automatic litigious-algorithm for copyright-infringing mods that use proprietary assets, is very rare for the whole digital media industry (e.g. YouTube, Soundcloud, etc.). Though Bethesda is certainly not without its faults, but by no means is it the greatest propagator of these problems among major developers in the industry (e.g. EA, Konami, Warner Games, Ubisoft, etc.). To digress, I even had high hopes for the system set up with Steam that allowed for modders to profit from their hard work and creativity, and (while there were definitely significant issues with the way that it was implemented, including and especially regarding the pay structures for modders, let alone questions of quality control) still believe a workable model could be found. Nevertheless, Bethesda has been one of the few major developers to encourage the community and respond to it constructively.

Returning to the issue at hand, I can say that I wholeheartedly reject the idea that the game is "free" or that Bethesda owes no explanation. I, as previously stated, have put a considerable sum into this game. That sort of [previously] unnecessary transaction came with an important implication: I am doing so in support of a game that, at the time of payment, I believe worthy of financial support. However, if the game is altered by curtailing and not expanding gameplay––such as when a hitherto unhindered and necessary mechanic (meaning vital to gameplay) is cut off––then I, having paid to support a game that is no longer playable, am owed at least an explanation for these curtailing alterations. It's not an MMO, so these mechanics were not OP, presenting a few with an unfair advantage in a competition against others. Also, many report having experienced no lag or crashes due to number of explorers, so it's not game-breaking. In fact, by most accounts and including myself, the newest version has been shown more game-breaking bugs, crashes, and frequent lags than the previous version. Finally, capping the number of explorers does not add or assist in adding to gameplay, so it's not a logical step towards enhancing gameplay.

TL;DR

As both a fan and customer, I will continue pressing for an answer; but, I have plenty of reasons to resist simply out-and-out rejecting Bethesda entirely. I am, no less, very disappointed and disheartened.

I stopped playing right after the update, I didn't have the patience to find a solution for the 50 explorers I had. I agree with everything you guys wrote in here (and in other threads). I do hope the dev team reads this posts. I will not return playing until this cap is removed completely.

I am playing much less now. The game is getting less fun. However, I found the forum is more interesting than the game.

LOL theres steam drm on Fallout New Vegas Skyrim AND Fallout 4 so thats a moot point. OT: They introduced the dwellercap to make the game more stable, according to alot of people the 1.2 or 1.21 version is more unstable then the 1.1 version so we can conclude the dweller cap is completely useless and only there as a money sink cause now youll never get any legendaries without buying 100's of lunchboxes

I'm struggling with 10 wanderers. I need to stick with sending them out during the weekends....

That's if you buy from Steam. The PC hard copy versions don't have Steam's DRM. Also, not the point.

Frustrating. Since first starting the game, I've never had more than about 12 dwellers out exploring.

But for the last two weeks I've had ~50 Level 1 Dwellers in each of two Vaults doing nothing but training their SPECIAL stats. I'm about to unleash my Super Dweller hordes upon the Wasteland, but now apparently I will not be able to do that.

Maybe it's just as well. My only device capable of playing the game is a Galaxy S4 Mini. It started slowing down at about 120 Dwellers, a one hour FOS session drains 80% of the battery, and it gets hot enough to fry an egg on it (as far as you know).

Sadly, their silence on this matter says it all.

@Gstaff We are still here, and await an answer.

I whole-heartedly agree with what you say, red_samaritan. I just don't think Gstaff (or anyone else from Bethesda's side) is going to answer. Some replies were left just after the update, but with the growing number of (often rude or very critical) complaints, Gstaff has seemed to have dissapeared from the forums.

On the one side, I understand the frustration of the players, but on the other side, I understand that Gstaff is reluctant to say anything, since there is so much hostility and not everybody leaves comments as civil as yours.

The 25 dweller limit is not a problem.

The fact that explorers don't find legendary items IS a big problem.

You raise a fair point. Regardless of how many explorers go into the wasteland, the impossibility of obtaining any more Legendary items renders the whole endeavor pointless in the endgame insofar as completion. However, the limit does have other drawbacks, such as hindering quickly level dwellers after maxing out their S.P.E.C.I.A.L. skills; completing certain tasks (e.g. "Send 30 dwellers to the wasteland," without using the send/recall cheat); preventing players from conveniently testing out new builds or disposing of unnecessary dwellers; and, of course, forcing players with many in the wastes to reassess their vault makeup or leave numerous dwellers wandering around the vault on "Coffee Break." Either way, both of these newly implemented changes curtailed gameplay without warning or explanation.


On a side note, I could imagine that had the drop rate of items increased, even incrementally in proportion to time spent exploring (compared with what it had been pre-v1.2/1.21), then the limit on explorers would have been more along the lines of an even exchange.


Nevertheless, these changes remove gameplay instead of adding to or enhancing it, which is never a good goal for an "update." We're left with only the option of Lunchboxes, which have a small chance of containing a Legendary item or dweller (which I've never understood why there was no chance to proc one from the Radio Station). More and more, these facts paint an ugly picture, which is all the more reason to have an explanation.

Definitely a mistake on the part of Bethesda. Taking features away without a clearly stated justification will only undermine goodwill.

Quote for Truth. Now I quit playing FOS while ago due to explorer cap.


What disappointed me was not the stupid cap itself, but cap without any justification or explanation. If Bethesda gave us some reasonable explanation behind their decision, it would be much easier to accept and swallow the bitter decision.

Maybe the explorers cap will become a thing for sale in the cash shop, like the robots $5 +1 to maximum explorers.

OMG remove this limitation already, it's killing the game...

Just recalled all explorers today. Keep it dormant to see if any good updates to come.

As with the NGD crippling, the explorer limit is a ploy to sell lunchboxes. Nobody's going to buy lunchboxes when people's 75 explorers are finding Halloween costumes all over the place.


http://imgur.com/2qEEPIj

I really wish it weren't so, but when that popped up in game (I still check daily), I shook my head.

Still, I'm not going anywhere. I've resolved to be here until there's either an answer and/or the NGD event (or an equivalent opportunity to obtain Legendary items) is reimplemented into the game. Indifference allows this sort of stance/action to go unchecked. An avid follower of the gaming industry, there's been too much evidence to show that this removal of gameplay is out of character for Bethesda; but, that does not mean they are or should be given carte blanche.


@Gstaff : We are still here, and await an answer. Thank you.

I understand desire of Bethesda to sell more Lunchbox and to earn more money. But such desire should be fulfilled by adding more interesting content to game and make players to play more and giving more incentive to buy lunchbox, not by removing or limiting existing game contents. It will only make players quit playing game, just like me.