i always made sure i did the perks in correct order to get the 6.3x damage but now after patch 1.4 im only doing 4.7x??

patch notes said they fixed so it now calculates correctly no matter what order you take them

i have

ninja 3 = 3.5x

mister sandman 3 = +50% silenced weapons

cloak & dagger = +20%

3.5 + 50%(1.75) + 20%(1.05) = 6.3

so my silenced weapons should be doing 6.3x sneak attack which they were before patch but they are only doing 4.7x now?

even if they went ninja + (sandman + cloak & dagger) = 5.95 (3.5 + 2.45)

theres absolutely no way mathmatically i can even get 4.7x out of it??/

anyone else?

Unless by fixing some perks like the ones you mentioned they tweaked the sneak attack to be less? I mean Stealth in this game was overpowered before.

They replaced the bug with another bug lol

It varied depending on the order in which you got Ninja, Mister Sandman, and Cloak and Dagger previously. Now it's giving either 4.7 or 4.8 to everyone, and it's calculating it in a really unintuitive way. It used to at least make sense if you looked at the math properly, even with the variation from the order. But now it just doesn't really make sense.

NInja - 3.5x

Mister Sandman - +50%

Cloak and Dagger - +20%

3.5x+.20(3.5x)+.50x=4.7x

So Cloak and Dagger is adding a multiple of the base damage with Ninja, while Mister Sandman is just adding an additional flat percentage on top of the damage from Ninja and Cloak and Dagger. Mine is reading as 4.8x, but this is likely just some kind of floating point issue. There's not much of a difference between 4.7 and 4.8 though anyway.

It makes more sense to me to calculate it like this -

3.5x+.20(3.5x)+.50(3.5x)=5.95, which would just round up to 6.0. This is less than the 6.3 I was getting before, but it makes more sense to do it this way I think.

There's a thread somewhere over in the PC section where we had a really in depth discussion about this. I'm trying to find it but I'm not seeing it. It was from a while back.

@ Stealthblade...

I don't know about it being overpowered.

After playing my Stealth/Sneak guy, I played a Iron Fist guy with that fist weapon from the named at the pond. He 1 hits everything more often than my Sneak/Stealth guy. Yes my Sniper/Stealth guy seems to 1 shot 90% of the time. But my Iron fist guy doesn't need to sneak up on anything. I added the VATS Blitz perk and he just teleports on top of everything and 1 shots them without taking a hit. My stealth guy usually 1 shots everything, but if my companion gives me away or for some reason they see me I have to unload a 40 round clip from my combat shotgun modded to be a sniper rifle to kill things that are my level (108). The perk that loses their agro if you pop out and back into stealth never seems to work properly for me. My fist weapon guy didn't even wear power armor. I then played a Power Armor guy with Heavy weapons. Just as over powered. He didn't 1 shot, but he never really was in danger of being hurt either. There is a Pyromanic build (that's all chems for 40+ seconds of slowing). They may take shots, but nothing seems to really challenge them.

On youtube you can see like 50 builds that are just as powerful or more powerful than the sniper build. So nerfing the sniper builds seems a waste of time. As there are many other things that need much more serious attention .

After the patch I saw my guy getting x4 percent. Still enough to 1 shot most things. It still seems based on you losing the stealth bonus if you 1 shot hit. Before the patch it often only showed me hitting for 3.5 x damage. I have that Vats Combat Shotgun modded out to be a sniper, with lots of rounds and quickload. It is probably not even close to the hardest hitting sniper. It hits for 149 a shot (x4 if the stealth mod applies). It also has 40 rounds if I get caught "flat footed". So I don't need to carry another weapon. Though I usually carry a melee weapon that uses that Slugger perk. And I use the Vats Blitz perk when I use that. Again it and my sniper 1 shot Death Claws on the old survival level. In the new survival mode I would probably be in big trouble. Considering all the bugs Bethesda has to work on, I find this to be odd.

I do have the two perks they were saying were having an issue though. And I think it was bugged and never properly registered both. Thus the 3.5 I always saw. Now I see x4. In the old Patch I think I sometimes saw it say x5.3 for the damage bonus. I don't know if that is what needed to be patched. Probably, if that was the case.

Stealth in Fallout 4 is like Skyrim. At first you thin it is over powered, until you play another build and find it is average or under powered compared to others .

They noted one perk was miscalculating, so I guess the total dmg multiplier before was wrong and now its right.


Edit: apparently sandman and ninja caused the misscalulate.

yeah it seems that mister sandman does not actually multiply the sneak attack damage by 50% it instead adds .5, or another way is it adds 50% of the original weapon damage before any sneak attack multiplier

so

mister sandman + (ninja + cloak and dagger)

which would equal

.5 + (3.5 + .7) = 4.7

very counter intuitive way of calculating it i think, badly described too i think. now that it only adds .5 to your multiplier it seems an awful waste of 3 perks.

i wont be getting this on any following characters anymore until i run out of stuff i want

@hofmann...

Thanks for the explanation for us non mathelethes out here .

Wait, are you seriously trying to tell me rank 3 of Ninja that gives out 3.5x Sneak attack damage for range attacks and 10x sneak attack damage for melee weapons isn't overpowered by itself? I'm not even counting Mister Sandman or Cloak and Dagger but if i did, you're looking at insane damage multipliers that makes it insane. Oh lets not forget Blitz, this bad boy multiples the damage further depending on how far you're away when using vats. People have stated it's the most overpowered thing in the game.

So it was miscalculated before? I noticed my sneak sniper hits went from 5.3x to 4x after patch 1.4. Still killing most things in one shot but that's the reason I invested into those perks.

@stealthblade...

OP is a comparison to what other builds can do in the game. In that sense Stealth/Sniper build is not OP. As many other builds can achieve the same result.

Also if you shoot someone in the head with a sniper rifle, they usually die in one shot. Would you play a sniper/stealth build and go that deep in those trees and not expect a 1 shot kill? It meets expectations and it is within the range of other builds within the game.

And unlike Iron Fist with a great weapon, you lose it all if you lose stealth. Which makes it more dangerous than the Iron fist build. Especially in the new survival mode. Iron fist also only requires 1 strength. And if you add that rooted perk it is even more OP. Throw in Power Armor's Pain train and other abilities and your absurd. There are many builds like that in the game.

So no I don't see stealth as OP. I see it as balanced with other builds can do. Remember it is stacking perks for that result. If you do that with other builds you are creating the same 1 shot kill build.

Heck if you buy a big boy and want to you can one shot anything in the game.

There is no such thing as deader. You are dead or not. If several builds can result in 1 shot deaths. I do no see stealth/sniper builds as OP.

One thing for sure...

1.4 patch removing goo piles & weakening silenced guns... made plasma rifle finally one of best gun to use in all situation.

I see you seemed to have missed my point. You said: "I don't know about it being overpowered....." and I was telling you on my post how IT'S OVERPOWERED. What the OP is saying is not relevant to my post other than the fact melee in this game when chosen the appropriate perks are overpowered. In Skyrim it was too. It's just the facts.

@Stealthblade...

"I don't know about it being overpowered" means I don't believe it is OP. You were saying you think it is OP. So I didn't miss your point. I disagree with you. I think it is balanced with acceptable power levels in the Fallout game. The same is true with Skyrim. Is it powerful? Yes. Is it beyond what other perks can do? No. So it is balanced as several other perks achieve the same or greater kill proficiency.

Both melee and ranged perks can achieve this 1 shot kill. Both can stack the other abilities you mentioned. Or others for powerful effect. I showed the sniper/stealth build can do it. You mention melee can do it. Both are extremely powerful (with the correct builds). So it is balanced. You just have to learn to use the right perks.

Both melee and ranged can stack perks to the same absurd level. Again, that is balanced.

I will agree that Skyrim and Fallout allow for very powerful builds. More than say an MMO acceptability. Some may think they are too strong. But those games are designed to be solo and allow you to be any class combination you want. So the 1 shot kill is acceptable in their game mechanics.

I think the new survival mode will address the issue here. Because I think what people are doing is measuring how much damage they can take against what the NPC's face. That makes the player seem OP. And as the hero we are supposed to be. But for those who need more realism. The new survival mode should make it so more mobs 1 shot you. Thus people will need more of a challenge will feel the game is more balanced.

I know i'm in the minority here, but I find the 1 shot sniper kill and Iron Fist builds to be more realistic. If someone shot me in the head with a sniper rifle. I would die in 1 shot. If someone hit me with that huge fist weapon. I would probably die in 1 shot. I guess real life is OP too .

Either way we both love Stealth builds. So I see no need to worry about it.

I hate nerfing in all games, and I hate people who requests it even more.

@IrwinDustin....

I didn't know they weakened silenced guns. Very good to know. I thought for some reason my sniper felt weaker in the new build. Mobs also seem to be seeing through my stealth a lot more also. I did my 5 radiant quest today and 3 of the 5 quests had people seeing through my stealth. 1 of those quest is a turn in with Mayor so stealth doesn't matter there. So that seems stealth itself was nerfed. Maybe I'm getting too close. Either that or I'm just rusty . And the perk that supposedly allows me to get out of stealth then go back in to lose long range agro just never seems to work.

I can understand a suppressed gun doing less damage. But I have never felt like any of the guns I have are true snipers. They just hit for so much less damage than my shotguns. My combat rifle modded to be a sniper does 149 per hit. the best sniper I have seen hits for 160. My shotgun that is modded out does like 260. Both of them are suppressed/silenced and both benefit from sneak/rifleman perks. The shotgun just hits harder. I like both types of guns. Just shocked that a sniper doesn't hit as hard (long range) as a shotgun (hits up close). Though both achieve 1 shot kills, so I'm not worried .

The goo nerf is sad from a roleplaying point of view. Although sometimes you can't find a normal body in the woods. So the goo might really frustrate some. Especially if they kill a legendary mob and can't find the goo pile.

I haven't used a plasma rifle yet. I have one play through with a laser rifle and power armor. So it felt pretty solid to me. So Plasma must be pretty strong.

@Armor...

I dislike nerfing thing also.

I just see it as a slippery slope. MMO's are always doing that, because of perceived PVP balances. But no MMO I have ever played has ever truly achieved what players call balanced. WOW has been around for almost 20 years (maybe just seems like it) and it is still trying to tweak PVP, main build perks.

In Fallout's case I find it frustrating because the company is addressing issues that might not be priority. Especially in a single player game. The sniper/melee stealth thing is a perfect example. Yes it's strong. But other perks do the same thing. But while were addressing this small issue, some people have quest lines and other game experience ruining bugs/glitches and those issues weren't addressed. To make it worse the "fixes" seem to have broken the rug glitch that fixed the horrible Collison issues on consoles. We now have save glitches and freezes. So your patching minor things and creating bigger issues all without fixing horrible bugs.

Kind of makes me wonder sometimes. Thus I think nerfing is a slippery slope, unless your game is otherwise perfect. And even though Bethesda makes fantastic games and I love them, bug free is not something they can claim.

See there's a difference with range abilities in fallout 4: One needs to have a great weapon with mods(a good legendary prefix will help like instigating) and with rank 3 of ninja you get 3.5x damage on range attacks.

But for melee, lets say Pickmans Blade or Instigating Combat(more so on this one since it already has a double damage modifier for full health) has 22 base damage: both with rank 3 of ninja(10x sneak damage) and rank 2 of blitz with appropriate distance you are granted an additional 25% damage increase(you're looking at 250 damage with sneak attack + perks) and I haven't even brought up 4 ranks into big leagues which adds alot more damage to the melee weapon. So no, right now i do not think it's particularly balanced because of it being overpowered. What I think should happen is the sneak attack on level 3 ninja should be 6x.

How do you get from rank 1) 4x | Rank 2) 5x | and Rank 3) 10x melee damage?

In skyrim if you exploit certain things yea you could reach even more ridiculous levels but even if you don't there's 15x assassin blade perk and if you use the DBH gloves which doubles the backstab damage you're reaching 30x sneak attack damage. And you tell me that's NOT over powered but it's balanced? Uh.......

Anyway disagree all you like but the facts are there that's it's overpowered. I like stealth playstyles but i'd be completely naive to believe stealth isn't overpowered in these two games especially comparing how they weren't in New Vegas(powerful but not overpowered) and Oblivion(powerful but not overpowered)

My 5.3x sneak dmg is now 4x sneak dmg. But even with my 2 shot 50 cal suppressed fully modified, 4x dmg is still crazy overpowered even in Survival.

10X melee damage is way overpowered. I used this build and it really is easy. Nothing sees you, and they die in an instant. I never have to use chems, sell all my bullets for caps and my machete weighs almost nothing. I am so overpowered that I hesitate to use this build for the DLC.

3.5*1.5*1.20=6.3 yet (1+2.5+0.5)*1.20 is 4.8 which is fairly close to 4.7

most games are "balanced" by changing declared calculation methods. Heap all bonuses up by adding really ruins the effect and expectations.

@stealthblade...

I think your forget the point of statistics. You can prove any point you want by swaying the math to a certain point of view.

1 post you claim your saying Melee is OP. But you constantly come back to stealth being the real culprit. When both ranged and melee can do it. Thus I feel it's balanced.

And like you I thought stealth daggers was the bomb in Skyrim and the most overpowered thing in the world until I saw my noob wife play a 2 hand mace and make all those stealth bonuses look like a joke. I then made a 2 handed mace and owned entire towns all day long. If you tried the 2 handed mace build and it's perks in Skryim you wouldn't be talking about the stealth. The math makes it sound great. It is strong. But in practice the 2 handed mace was absurd, and made the stealth look like a noob. Even the companion was deadly with the 2 handed mace. No perks needed.

Have you looked at all the boards your posting on? You seem to disagree with a lot of people on every forum.

So I assume you like to argue. Which means you always win. In your mind. Because when someone ague's their mind is closed. They are too busy thinking about what they are going to say, and never listen. They only think about winning. Which means the subject really doesn't matter. Winning the argument is the only thing that matters.

It reminds me of a saying I heard. A man who argues with a horse has a fool for an opponent. So I admit I'm the fool. You win the argument .

Which is precisely my point, the issue is enhance with blitz, don't get me wrong I love blitz but the extra damage based off distances and how rank 3 of Ninja should be 6x not 10x is what's making it overkill.

Actually, most people who play skyrim and fallout 4 will tell you melee is overpowered. In Oblivion http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Sneak wasn't, it was fair with the perks into sneak and one handed increasing damage. And with http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Ninja You noticed the only increase in the sneak damage is 25% which is what Blitz offers you. The Critical chance increase is not bad either but none of them offers the insane 10-30x(with certain gloves) sneak attack damage that fallout 4 and Skyrim offered.

I don't actively go to topics to argue but in this discussion i'm bringing real statistical proof that both fallout 4 melee system with the perks is overpowered many people said the same due to the fact it's running off skyrim's engine and they probably carried it over. But because of those fallout 4 perks maxed out Blitz and Ninja you can one shot level 50-70 deathclaws in one shot. There's no fear or challenge in stealth build cause no one will see you and you can kill them instantly.

You may disagree but the facts are there in the statistics. If the sneak attack modifier was changed from 10x to 6x it'd be more akin to oblivion and make more sense in the flow up upgrade in the perk ninja. It's like todd and his team just randomly doubled the sneak attack damage after 2 for no reason.