*rant warning*

So I was just watching some youtube video where a guy was talking about the lore of Swan. And before engaging it, he used VATS to show it off. And I noticed something odd...

"Awareness" is a perk to which I pay little attention; I've never taken it and see no reason why I should. If I can't figure out that certain enemies would resist certain things, then I'll be punished for it. But the odd thing in the video was the level.

You see, it showed Swan as being level 50. But I killed that enemy just a few days ago with my second character... a no guns character... who is only allowed to play in Very Hard difficulty... and was level 18 at the time. To me, this is a huge problem. Where is the challenge in this damn game? Even the story itself is ruined by the sense of "That was it? The whole boss fight? Awwwww, c'mon man!"

I come from a background in Borderlands 2, where if an enemy is more than two levels above you, they have not only the health associated with an enemy that level, but also damage reduction. At three levels above you, it's 10% less damage. At four levels, 20%. And so on. I remember unwittingly walking into a level 50 fight as a level 32 character, and a gun which normally dealt 2000 damage per shot was hitting for 4. The hardest difficulty in that game is "OP +8" (having a level 72 healthbar, wielding level 80 weapons, against level 80 enemies with massive damage resistance.) That is fun. Fallout 4? The combat is lackluster. Disappointing. Legendary Radscorpions in the Glowing Sea go down in just a few hits from a Combat Rifle (Which, for the record, I modified to be automatic. So that it would not be boosted by my only DPS skill, Rifleman). At this point, I play for the base building, and it's a little bit sad. The new Survival mode won't be any better... instead of improving the combat, it's focusing on 'realism'. The combat in it is simply going to be the Sole Survivor's Very Easy mode damage output combined with Very Hard mode damage intake (a flat 2x multiplier in both directions). For the record, I played BL2 for thousands of hours. I expect to play Fallout 4 for a maximum of a thousand, and already, the majority of my time has been invested into building, or grinding radiant quests to get more building perks.

Just a little bit disappointed is all. This game did not focus nearly enough on difficulty of combat or enemy density. The good news is, two of the announced DLC's will introduce new crafting and building features.

Anyone else having these thoughts, feelings, and/or regrets?

*rant over* *sadness continues*

i think bethesda would consider improving combat, if the community wanted it enogh. personally i agree with you 100%, f4 needs a more balanced combat system that makes it appropriately challenging

I am not dissapoint in FO4 combat. If you avoid DR upgrades and armor, the game should still be tactically interesting even upto level 100+ and beyond.

Now Borderlands 2, as much of a Classic game it was, once you got to the 3rd playthrough, enemies become SUPER bullet sponges, even low level enemies become too annoying to fight and you have to shut it off (I assume thats what FO4 Survival mode is like now).

Yes, it's true that UVHM kicked your ass and handed it to you on a platter unless you were very economical with your skill points. But in this game, it's the reverse - you have to avoid all the best tools if you want it to be properly challenging. And no, Survival mode is not a bullet-spongy challenge right now: It's the same as Very Hard but with a healing gimmick. Even pipe weapons are still viable.

Consider enemies scale both up and down, maybe swan wasn't level 50 for you?

Swan might not have been level 50 for the OP, area levels are set when the player first goes into that zone. I've downloaded a mod that will re-scale all zones to my level and above and it's very hard right now playing on survival mode without power armor. There was this area where I died 4 times trying to get through, mostly to grenades. It should get easier as I get all the perks, but at level 30, it's been a challenge so far.

If you want a challenge, then download mods. I did the same with Skyrim. There already are complaints about Fallout 4 being too hard, just imagine if it were even harder. And Borderlands 2 got a lot of complaints about the difficulty of Ultimate Vault Hunter Mode. Most people like it easy so they can believe they are great players and have some sort of skill.

Oh, I wasn't aware this game has scaling areas. That would be cooler, except it comes down to you? That's pretty lame. And I know, I'm aware people complained about BL2 difficulty. But you know something? The only campaign DLC to be released after UVHM existed was the best selling one. People may p* * * and moan about hard games, but damn, difficulty keeps people wanting to play and beat it. Maybe Far Harbor will be constantly scaled to +1 or +2 levels like UVHM was, because when the going gets tough, the going gets good. That's what we've always said in my family, anyway.

According to the Fallout 4 Wiki, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Swan Which is ironic, considering the topic.

Oh well that settles that. Apparently 1 rank of Blitz, 1 rank of Rooted, 2 ranks of Big Leagues, some drugs and a baseball bat are all you need to take out a level 50 miniboss.

I see your background. I play Borderlands 2 too but I didn't enjoy seeing enemy one hit kill the whole team in one shot, shifting Slag + appropriate element gun back and forth while making the rest of the items and skills nearly or completely useless. That doesn't make me an Ultimate Vault Hunter, that makes me Ultimate Enemy's B1tch instead.

I wish there's a proper level scaling in Fallout 4, but so far I'm still getting a fine challenge in Hard Mode. I have Legendary Guns, Ballistic Weave, and Armors and a list of perks taken that is limited.

In Fallout 4, the perk can make you a walking hell on earth and it's all up to you. If you make your character into a total killer, it's not really the game's fault, as proven by myself playing a level 77 and still get quite a damage from level 35, 40 enemies, especially when they're legends. I still can get killed many times by Bloodbugs and Gunners, but not in BL2's UVHM way.

TLDR: I understand your background. I wish there's a better level scaling. But so far I'm glad I don't have to get stuck for 40 minutes, camp, and repetitively die just to kill a group of petty mobs.

It does seem unbalanced, I'll agree to that. Sometimes I'm wading through hordes of raiders with nothing more than some leather armor and a stun baton, then suddenly a tiny group of raiders in a different area are having my ass for lunch (with a side order of my spleen); and it happens in a heartbeat. But I have to say; it keeps me on my toes. And that's on Easy or Normal, I forget which I last had it set.

I'm not a combat junkie, I took a long time to figure out VATS and am still not 100% there; plus, my builds are heavy on the Charisma- so for me, the combat is right about where I want it to be. To take Rook's example, Swan took me a good 6 or 8 runs on every playthrough so far to conquer. I've tried grenade-fishing him, Molotov-carpet bombing, miniguns, sniping, tried to cripple the legs, the works. Eventually, most recently, I just fled down a side street where he couldn't fit and then hid from the rock-throwing while popping out to shoot him in the head every time my APs built back up enough; all the while shooting up stim-paks like crazy. It wasn't pretty, but it worked.

I had an encounter today with a Legendary Deathclaw at a well-known but spoilered location, and if some NPC robots hadn't engaged it first, allowing me to stand off and shoot it in safety, I expect it would have had me for its tea. It didn't go down quickly at all. So, as I say, the combat feels about right to me.

When I took out Swan in mid-game, i did so intelligently using my Gauss Rifle and using the environment as a natural barrier given that Swan is a less agile (mostly) melee character. Despite his level he didn't have a chance because I had prepared for the fight. Sun Tzu recognised the importance of the use of the environment, which has nothing to do with scaling. The fight was hardly a one-hit kill, and had there been basic super mutants running around as well, I would have been meat bag fodder...

If they make impossible or very hard to kill Swan unless you're at level 40+ , I can imagine how many people will come to this forum to complain about it.

I killed swan at level 13 and got a good power fist.

The Fallout and Borderlands comparisions have always been popular, and with the emphasis on gunplay in F4 never more so.

But as a dedicated Fallout and Borderlands really devoted fan I accept that BL is entirely geared towards balanced gunplay and Fallout is not, and rightly so as they are approacing the coin from different sides > Fallout is an RPG with strong elements of a Shooter and BL is an Shooter with strong elements of a RPG.

Something else to take into account is a Lvl 50 player is someone that has already put a massive amount of time into the game but they won't necesarily be putting any more in, they may well condsider that their end point so it makes sense that the Boss enemies would be upto around that.

The no level cap approach has certain presented some interesting challenges for Fallout, level scaling isn't perfect for sure but they are nearly there - On survival at Lvl 112 with an all 11 SPECIAL with all damage reduction perks maxed a Cousar destroyed me in a few shots so whatever level/weapon they had been given it was at the right level to challenge me.

That all being said unfortunately I do with the OP in general, an improvement to scaling is needed as the example I gave is rare, its pretty much only high levelled super mutants that come equipped enough to deal with me and any melee enemies at all are simply no threat.

I hope over time the game can look at some sort of accelerated scaling as after all the perks allow for (at a minimum) double damage givem and upto 50% reduced damage taken, it would be nice for enemies to perhaps be scaled over level to account for that.

Level alone does not indicate anything and is irrelevant. Level 50 deathclaw is not equal to level 50 radroach. Nor it should be.

Besides, dumping HP and flat out resistance to the enemies to create bullet sponges is just dumb way to make up for lack of AI and adds no value to the game. AI will have always it's limits anyway compared to human brain. Once you know AI patterns, which I ques you do since it's your replay, it's easy to exploit it.

And last but not last, Fallout is still an RPG and not arcade shooter like Borderlands. It's fine that they emphasized combat more, I am all for it, but it still is not and should not be it's main, much less only value.

Consider the problem I can have with him with my drug free gun using character, I say the issue is perk balancing, rather then scalling honestly.

Wait, is Borderlands 2 an open-world RPG where you have access to 99% of the map as soon as you start the game, and can be at virtually any level by the time you reach certain areas?

Scaling is one thing, another thing is XP. All NPC should level up with player (maybe some should be a little higher than player as well) and XP should increase a little, because each time you level up, you need to gather more xp to gain next level. S M 10 xp ... a little annoying.

Cheers,

-Klevs

Well, you know, I've been complaining about this for years.

I'm currently playing through Xenoblade Chronicles. A game which actually understands scaling and having a great battle system.

Bethesda RPGs have incredible worlds and intricate lore, but their combat always leaves something to be desired.

Edit : Forgot to mention, I really hate Borderlands though. I find the games vapid and totally pointless. The combat is pretty crap in those games too. In fact, I prefer Fallout/TES combat to Borderlands.

I really do NOT like these "loot-based" RPG things. They're lazy af, and they're dull to the bone.

Well op you should try the new survival when its out.