But I think your points aren't valid and don't deserve merit because they're outright wrong and based on false information in several ways. The way you're presenting the system simply isn't the way that the system works, going by the article that originally described it. Whether or not you've explained your reasoning doesn't change that.

What have I said that isnt true? There is no level cap, you can improve your skills by use, you get 1 perk every level up, all from the magazine. The only thing assumed is that there are no more attributes, based on what they said about increasing health and magicka and stamina at level up. Most people agree that is very possible that they are in fact not present. Yes, the game is tailored to levels 1-50, and leveling is slower after that, but there is no element on the leveling system that prevents you from maxing out every skill, and become a master of everything. They removed stats to get rid of efficient leveling, and the result its not any more balanced, in my opinion. You will have people still using skills not relevant to the way they play because they all contribute to leveling, and increasing them will allow, no matter how slow this is, to get a new perk and increase in health, magicka and stamina.

If it sways your mind at all:


The ways in which perks could copy or augment the contributions does not sound a good enough reason to gut the svckers entirely from the game. I will again list some of the effects that attributes had on general gameplay. Strike-through on all the effects "replaced" by the new leveling system.

Strength - Encumbrance, added hit damage, starting health, fatigue
Endurance - fatigue regen (I believe), fatigue, starting health, leveling health
Agility - Less recoil, additional opponent recoil, fatigue
Speed - Movement speed
Personality - Initial disposition
Willpower - Magicka regen, Magicka resistance
Intelligence - Max Magicka

I count 8 more effects that would have to be made into perks. Why? Why do all of these things have to be redone in the new way to experience an enhanced character development?
beatcop said it a few times, along with others, that these systems would (and did in the past) work great alongside each other; complimentary. Now, we do not know if attributes have been cut so no one is really discussing this on an entirely factual basis, as has been admitted. The most we can do on the subject, if anyone really wants to push it, is to wait for more product to look at.

Magicka regen has a very similar effect to simply having a larger pool of the stuff, so having that simply set to a consistent rate wouldn't exactly be a bad thing. It's also possible that they've removed it entirely. Resistance would actually be considerably more interesting if it were handled on a per-school basis (knowledge of Destruction spells means knowing how to properly take a hit from them, for example). Initial NPC disposition is easily rolled into the Speechcraft skill. Agility doesn't increase opponent recoil, and recoil in general is something that makes more sense as a function of (or combination of) specific skills. Endurance doesn't influence fatigue regen (that's a function of Athletics), movement speed is already heavily influenced by Athletics, and hit damage is already more heavily determined by weapon skills than by Strength. That leaves encumbrance, which is very easily rolled into Athletics. None of these things needs to be made into perks, and it's extremely doubtful that any of them would be. You seem to be running on the assumption that perks are just a particularly unwieldy version of attributes or a series of numbers derived from your skills, but that's simply not the case.

All that said, the fact that the character system didn't have to be redone doesn't make the fact that it has been redone a bad things.

But my point is that all of those partial effects have not been said to be replaced completely by perks, nor would that make as much sense as keeping both systems intact. The attributes effects have never completely replaced or been unique from skills. They are overarching characteristics. There were still a few attribute bonuses that you did not mention so I will round down to 4.

There are still 4 effects that a player would need to choose upon leveling up in order to experience any of the things allotted in past games. I do not think that is good improvement on the character development process.


There are many, many things that we do not know about perks or attributes. I will say it again, no one has a traceable right to be militant about the issue.

Which ones? It seems to me that I covered absolutely every single one you mentioned (including two that weren't determined by attributes at all). Do you mean the ones that you crossed out specifically because they're already replaced by the new leveling system in another way entirely? Because it doesn't make sense to me that you'd use those as examples in an argument that basing things on perks are worse when you've already noted that they're handled without perks in the new system.

And as to the rest of that paragraph, I've covered it already. So what if they've never been completely replaced or unique to the skills? So what if they worked differently before? "It's different" still doesn't equate to "it's bad".


Which four? You repeat the number here but you don't, not even once, provide any mention of what any of those four are. Are we still talking about health, stamina, and magicka? If so, if being forced to choose between those when you level to get the benefits of them is a bad thing, why is having to choose between eight things with far vaguer and less specific relations to those things better? I mean, going by your own posts even you aren't sure about just what those attributes actually did and you're obviously a fan of the series and a supporter of their inclusion (meaning you should be more familiar with them than most), so why are they such a good thing? How is having a series of numbers with uncertain effects better than having a series of numbers with very certain ones?

recoil and disposition went unmentioned, combined with the encumbrance and resistance/regen (combined) which you did account for, but under a system which I currently think is not all that optimal.

Health, stamina, and magicka I left off of that consideration because they were mentioned directly in relation to the new leveling system.

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And if the fact that I did not mention specifically which four effects I was referring to is a point against my argument I would have you know I was kinda hoping for and expecting some deeper introspection into the discussion.

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For starters, this is what I mean by militant. This approach is not needed.

However if I led you to believe that I do not know what the attributes did I would ask what specifically gave that impression followed by a swift assurance that I am fairly familiar with them, and I do know what effects they have. Furthermore I can try and re-state why I think they are important features. The perks and skills are all individual representations of experience that the player has, and are not indicative of overall progression and adaption that all the schooling of the skills has on the person and the body, as residual, as a side effect, as an overarching characteristic. Sorry for the run-on. This is just as important to me and a few others I would imagine in terms of character development.

I see no need or sign that attributes should or will be axed.

Speculation that causes things like believing that Oblivion is a terrible game. You convince yourself and possibly others that a system is bad even though you have not played it or even grasp the full use of the system because you haven't tried it. Basically your already on the road of another self-fulfilling prophecy that ruined Oblivion for you and the other people that only started with Morrowind. If you believe that something is going to be bad and treat it as so, then to you it is going to be bad, thus a self-fulfilling prophecy that the new system is going to be terrible and ruin the game.

Sounds like you made a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy of your own the way you put words in his mouth.

I find it really weird to assign points to stats that are normally derived. If stats are now hidden and a fixed factor of assignment, I have a really hard time placing Personality/Charisma (either one could be a derived stat) and Speed/Agility (either one could be a derived stat). So where we earlier assigned points to agility (which as stated earlier is a better stat than speed), speed would be a derived stat derived from agility, willpower (if physical and not just mental), strength, and current encumbrance. But how the heck do we derive Personality/Charisma and Speed/Agility from Health, Mana, and Fatigue? Ok, health can reverse derive to Strenght, (Constitution), and Endurance. Mana reverse derives to Intelligence (and maybe Willpower?). But now Fatigue can only reverse derive from something that is already reverse derived? No matter how I look at it, I can't get the equations going, or "look right". Seems like Personality/Charisma and one of Speed/Agility is thrown completely out of the game.

It took a bit to get your meaning but the systems are (and for speed, would be) a bit simpler.

Health, Mana, and Fatigue are probably related 1:1 with particular attributes, along with increases by level and special selection.
Charisma has to do with a NPC's initial attitude toward you, along with reputation.
I think you hit the Speed derivation on the head, minus the influence from Willpower.
Encumbrance derived from Strength again.

And on a final note only the Speed attribute seems likely to have been thrown out. Also it does not sound that Attributes would get any special attention upon leveling up, they might / will increase as the skills tied to them increase.

if this is true, perks will probably improve your skills - not health/magicka/stamina additions.


didn't they talk about a mace perk that gave it armor-ignore%?

I hope they haven't removed attributes as I personally enjoy increasing them and see it as my way of shaping my character and gives a good sense of leveling up.

I guess they could make something new work, but I would be sad to see them go.

I wonder what the impact will be on balance. A lot of alchemy and magic was various types of attribute buff and debuff. I assume there will be some slow and weaken effects, even if the associated attribute is toast.

IF this is true, they can easily be replaced by 100's of effects including the ones you listed

strength debuff = instead have a spell that reduces melee damage of target, or carrying capacity, etc.
speed = reduces run speed
agility = reduces attack speed, ranged damage, etc.
intellegence = reduces spell damage or casting speed
willpower = lowers magicka% or magicka regen etc.
luck = lowers their crit chance, or can randomly trip/fall, etc.
endurance = lowers hp%

Atributes were simply a way to change your character slowly a bit by bit as you leveled. Perks now do that.

Yes they changed races abilties slightly but that can be handled directly via race abilities.

A nord can simply carry more then a wood elf and do more hand to hand and melee damage.

A wood elf can simply do more ranged damage and run faster jump higher.

a high elf can simply have alot more majicka and regen it faster and resist mental magics better.

so on and so forth.

Then we can have pwrks that effect carry weight and melee /ranged damage and blah blah blah. what atributes used to do but more fun and less annoying and alot more interesting. Oh and wont result in everyone winding up at level 50 looking exactly the same....

They may have gotten rid of attributes, but they added perks. Which, depending on the variety and power, offer an entirely new and massive chance for roleplaying.

The same argument can be made for perks and yet they're confirmed to be in the game. So maybe there's more screens than that and Todd was lying (which would hardly be an earth shattering event).

I guess instead of speed determining how fast you're character can run, maybe Athleticism will take on that role now. I'm still not sure about strength...
I just feel like if they eliminate things like attributes, the game is going to lose a lot of depth.

uhm..theres HAS to be attributes! how would you know the strength of your character? the willpower? agility? i wont believe its out before they confirm it..

It's all very well crying 'change!' and expecting us to shout with you and throw our hats in the air, and chastising those who don't, but what are we changing to if there aren't any attributes?

Strength determined encumbrance and melee strength
Int determined amount of magicka
Willpower determined magicka and stamina regen rate
Speed determined speed
Endurance determined stamina and health

All of these attributes had a big effect on the game. If they've been scrapped, what determines what they used to determine?

At level up, will a level 40 magic-based character be offered the same increase in magicka as a level 2 fighter? Will a level 3 mage get the same free health increase as a level 40 fighter? How will magicka regen be determined (if it's in)?

Will a level 50 fighter who uses claymores and has 0 skill in daggers do the same amount of damage with a dagger as a level 2 wizard who has 0 skill in daggers?

Sure, we won't be fishing for +5 attribute increases anymore; instead we'll be fishing for perks, with each level's perk carefully planned out on a handy excel spreadsheet: "Let's see, Mage on Steroids becomes available at level 14, and I need 40 destruction and alteration to get it, so let's raise those before I hit lvl 14 so I can take Mage on Steroids right away"

We need much more information than they've given us. All they've really told us is that it's changing. But what to?

Personally I'm hoping for a system like the NGCD(?) mod for Oblivion, where your attributes increase normally as your skill in their relevant skills increases. No level up screens, and no multipliers.