Started playing skyrim again. Decided to go for a conjurer, since I've never really done much with conjuration in the past. I have ordinator installed btw, along with over 40 other mods. And yes, I do use all of them, though I have been thinking about uninstalling hunterborn.

Anyway, got myself the flame atronoch spell as soon as I could, but in combat I've been relying mostly on destruction to kill enemies. So pretty much the only skills I've been leveling are conjuration, and destruction.

Now, I have the civil war overhaul and deadly dragons, so i decided to do the main quest lines again to try them out. Anyway, chose imperial side this time, which means that winterhold is cut off to me for now, and I ended up in riverwood on my way to conquer riften, so i decided to finally do the quest that takes you back there to see a specific woman I won't mention for the sake of spoilers. Anyway, its the one that results in you having to fight a dragon. I've fought two dragons already, wasn't impressed by them, so I went into the MCM and upped the difficulty of the mod from vanilla (which apparently didn't alter their stats at all) to expert. I ended up with a dragon that could kill me in under a second, and I simply didn't have the firepower to kill it. All I have for damage is flame atronoch and fire bolt (its a lightning dragon, so I'm assuming its not resistant to fire).

Anyway, the gist of it is: my character is a glass cannon who doesn't really have much for damage output. Honestly, everytime a fight starts I just summon the fire atronoch and let it do the work while I run around frantically trying to not get killed.

Anyway, I read something online that said most mage characters actually use flesh spells to keep themselves alive, rather than going the glass cannon route. Another I found online was also a conjurer (a necromancer type) who apparently relied on sneak and invisibility to keep himself alive while his undead did everything for him.

I don't know how many skills I should invest in at once, I know fudgemuppet builds typically have 4-6, but he talks like you're supposed to start the game with those stats. He gives no indication how you're supposed to build up to the final build.

And I'm thinking, perhaps I shouldn't be building characters with absolutely NO defense.

If you care to know, the only character I've ever made that did well focused on the skills alchemy, enchanting, one-handed, block, archery, and light armor. Though it was mostly the enchanting that made the build work. When I found myself unable to deal with things, I started grinding solely enchanting (and alchemy, but mostly just for the money) to give myself better equipment. I've been trying to avoid alchemy and enchanting since honestly I don't like playing the game like enchanting is the only skill that's of any use at all.

I've tried to look up guides on how to actually build characters, but all I can really find is pre-made builds, they never really give the logic behind them.

And of course, I've always had the problem with doing quests far too early. I mean seriously, you know meridia's quest? The game forces that quest upon you 10 levels before you're supposed to do it. What the hell? How am I supposed to know before hand if I'm going to be walking into a situation where everything's 30 levels above me??? I felt like I needed to just avoid doing any quests at all and grind my skills to max on wolves first before actually attempting to play the game.

What should I do? I obviously have no idea what I'm doing, and it seems like the game is rigged to make you blindly walk into something you can't possibly handle. And yes, I have done the thing where you clear every single dungeon you pass by. I quickly cleared the whole map, and still ended up doing things far too early. I actually had to do bounty quests, just to get new areas I hadn't cleared yet to show up on my map, and even then I ran out eventually.

And no, I don't train my skills. I don't have the money for it. I mean seriously, I have to do 5-10 dungeons to get enough gold to train one level with a trainer, whose prices increase exponentially. I just don't see how you can actually make use of trainers. You just don't have enough money for them, at any level.

There is no right or wrong, lol

Just have fun!

Pure is making life harder on yourself.

The game is balanced for a multiclass fighter/mage/cleric/rogue who loves to craft and pretty much assumes you have access to all those skills to overcome your obstacles. Whether or not you do, of course, is up to you. If you have no money, you might want to look at whatever mod is destroying the local economy. All you need is a town that has a bunch of shops and stalls close together.

1) Loot everything that isn't nailed down.

2) Bring everything to town and sell, waiting two days as necessary.

3) PROFIT!!!

You already know about alchemy... Other than that, maybe not turn the dragon difficulty up quite so high?

With so many mods running, it's hard to even recommend anything other than the obvious (Daedric is always the best armor, etc...) because we don't know how things work in your game.

Simplest suggestion is don't try to "build". Focus on surviving using any means necessary and see what naturally develops. Try all the spells you can get your hands on and get creative with how you use them. Eventually, some things should start to 'click' for you in your game and you'll be on your way.

Here's my formula for a good "conjure" based character.

Conjuration ( watch the perk's... early... get the cost less ones 1st then worry more about other skills..it WILL level good through use)

Ranged... archery OR destruction

With Deadly Dragon's... don't go just flame... get all three elements up and get resist's on all three .... plus poison. The thing with D.D. is the dragon's aren't all "high" lvl ..you can meet lower ones or higher at any time.

Flesh spells OR smithing... you can do both...but loosing the perk's ... eh... I don't like doing that.. I choose one or the other to perk.. but will use oak flesh as extra armor with smithing.

I use 1h... may only perk the bottom, but it's good to have

Block... this doesn't really need perks... but a good shield with magic resist... it will lvl with use.

But really it all depends on you... what you prefer to do....having fun is the most important part.

What mods do I have?

Honestly, a lot of them are just cosmetic things. A sound and texture 'overhaul' for werewolves. Some bandit overhaul. Realistic needs and diseases. An outdated frostfall (I got banned from the nexus a year or so ago for 'reporting people and being incompetent', I reported someone for telling me to kill myself to asking for instructions on how to manually install a mod). Hunterborn, though honestly I haven't bothered to activate that mod for a while now. Deadly dragons. Honed metal. True storms. Real shelter. Immersive armors and weapons. Skycity. I just now installed belt-mounted quivers. Yeah, I have a lot of cosmetic mods that honestly don't change how the game functions. The most significant thing I have installed really is frostfall. My mage is actually running around with a back pack and tent and such, because I couldn't find the conjure shelter spell.

Right now, I'm thinking this character is not salvageable and I need to start over.

Long ago I did a fudgemuppet build, the paladin. Didn't really have much luck with it though. I was used to one-handed swords, so a two-handed mace felt so impracticle to me. I actually got a mod that lets you block at anytime, even in the middle of a power attack, just because I got sick of having to let the enemy hit me everytime I wanted to swing at him. Oh, and the build really had no armor, and instead relied on restoration to stay alive. Yeah, rely on healing spells when you use a two-handed weapon. You can imagine how well that worked. Made me wary of trying anymore fudgemuppet builds. But now, I've though about doing the warlock or maybe the dragonslayer builds. And yes, I have ordinator, but honestly it hasn't really had any noticible impact on my game. I'm thinking I should just remove it since really it isn't changing anything for me. It looks like it only starts to make a difference when you start to take the last perks.

• Conjuration - Aerial's advice, plus get the Bound Bow for range if you don't want to waste perks on Destruction.


• Alteration - level to get the magic resist perks filled out.


• Illusion to cast quietly, don't necessarily need all the spells and hoopla, but a good frenzy spell to set mobs to fighting and then throw the summons in the mix you can watch the fun for the most part.


• Dragons are a pain no matter what with D.D. installed. For this one recommends MFD shout (try to hit them in the air where your summons can't usually jump in front of your shout), Flame Atronach when dragon is airborne switch to frost or lightning atronach when on the ground. If you start dragons early in the game it's a bit more difficult, if you wait until you have the better summons it's not as bad. When you get the Dremora Lord he's a beast on grounded dragons.


• Highly recommend Alchemy/Enchanting (smithing not so much). The alchemy/enchant combo let's you produce gear for certain resists and potions for the others so you aren't as limited when having just one craft.

In the end it will be what fits your on style, likes and rhythm. Cheers and enjoy!

Hmmmm well I don't play with mods but reading your post I get the feeling you are misunderstanding the term "glass cannon". Typically those types of characters have really good offensive power but little defense. You have neither which is causing you issues.

Personally I believe the *coughs* "magic system" in Skyrim forces you to either be a hybrid OR utilize almost all of the various schools in one form or another including alchemy to up your damage out put a bit. Especially on levels higher than Adept and I imagine adding in those mods makes it a lot more difficult than regular Adept.

I found two things that will really help a non armor wearing mage were yes the flesh spells AND cloaks. Also runes. Setting those little rune traps help level destruction at a reasonable rate. At least in vanilla Skyrim.

When I do full mage I tend to perk fairly evenly in the skills most important to that particular character. Unless I am going for something very specific I keep it reasonably balanced so I am getting benefits from all schools. I level naturally because I hate grinding and such but try to keep it balanced with a few more perks in my chosen main school than the others.

Hope that helps. Remember this is vanilla skyrim so I am unsure how that may or may not play out in your modded game.

Thank's Bram... I always forget Bound Bow...which I use...

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/54899/?, this add's some very nice spell's... and some really good conjure spell's at all level's.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/64798/? There are other tent and camping systems, I just use that one.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/64283/?... you might not think it, but this actually help's along with enchanting to get a stronger mage character... more slot's to use.

Their is a mod that let's you cast while riding a horse.. I had it tracked at one time...now I can't find it on my list and I know I didn't download it...but it might be worth looking up if your playing a conjuration character.

First problem, I'd say, is cutting yourself off from Winterhold, if you want to play a mage. Your primary trainers are there.

Secondly, if you're playing a Glass Cannon Conjurer, you really need to let your summon take the heat, rather than taking the damage yourself. Go for the perks that allow you to "throw" your summon further away, and make use of it by always keeping it in between yourself and the enemy.

Your summon is tougher than you are, especially at higher difficulty, so let it get the enemy's attention before you start shooting. Basically, you're helping your summon, not the other way around. Keep enough magicka reserve to recast the summon if/when it dies.

To get into Winterhold, just put on a disguise. All you nees is an enemy uniform.


Tamriel Vault has a fantastic character build section. Go and read through its archives for some great build ideas

I decided that I can try the warlock build without starting a new character. I was kind of going that way anyway with him. I was planning on him specializing in lightning damage. Really all I need to do for the warlock is to also make use of block and flesh spells, which I can do. And the ordinator mod I have gives alteration a perk, where I can cast an alternation spell near my 'anchor' and its duration will be increased 50 times. And yes, there is also a perk much earlier on that doubles the duration of flesh spells. If they stack, I could have a flesh spell that lasts for over an hour in a half.

And it might help also, if I could get a frost atronoch, the flame atronoch isn't much of a tank, even with ordinator's new perks. But yeah, until then, I guess I'll be buying myself a shield and some flesh spells. Don't know if that will help me against a dragon. And yes, I do know of the breton racial power. I used that once in one of my attempts to kill the dragon, which with my birthstone made me completely immune to magic, and made his breath instead restore my magicka! Sadly, it only lasts for 45 seconds, and I would probably need half an hour to kill the thing. Some people have reported dragon fights taking literally all day (in game time).

Just gave http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68425/? a look-see. I'd never use it. Clearly a lot of folks find it fun and satisfying, but it looks very "busy" to my old eyes. Maybe it's worth dropping it for your mage character, and see if the vanilla perks work for you?

In particular, it looks like Ordinator seriously nerfs Destruction's Impact perk so that it only acts as to interrupt an enemy casting a spell. Personally I found the vanilla version key on my Destruction/Alteration mage. People dismiss it as overpowered (often the same people who claim Destruction overall is underpowered ), but I see it as the magic equivalent of shield-bashing, and as such it provides a lot of damage mitigation, even for a zero defense character.

More generally, at what level did you start having difficulty, and did you have a general strategy (e.g. approach, opening spells, ways of preserving Magicka, and tactics for avoiding damage)?

My tactic is rather simple: wait until a red dot appears on my compass, to make sure I'm in combat. I do that to insure I get xp for casting my conjuration spell, even though this means I start off with aggro on me. I then run around frantically hoping my summon will draw aggro, if that fails then I start blasting him with fire. Yeah, not the most sound strategy. And btw, that dragon can one-shot my fire atronoch, so its not very useful as a tank. Yeah, that npc is there, but she gets one-shotted by it too.

And yeah, I didn't know I would be cut-off from winterhold once I started the civil war quest. I never really bothered to think about which side which city was on, until I got attacked by the guards in ivarstead. Then I decided to actually look at a map, showing which cities were part of which faction. I was quite dismayed to find that all the eastern cities, including winterhold, were stormcloak.

And really, this may not be the ideal character to do the main quest with anyway. Perhaps I should just start over and do the main quest with someone who can actually survive dragonfire for more than a second. And yeah, I may uninstall the ordinator thing. It doesn't really seem to make a difference until you max out a skill. Before then, your character pretty much just functions the same way they would in vanilla. All the new stuff it adds, like being able to have more than 2 summons at once, or improving forges, or making a triple-enchantment item, are only available once you get your skill up to at least 90. So yeah, its kinda pointless I guess. And i never even explored the other trees anyway, such as illusion. Honestly, I've never once cast an illusion spell on someone. Perhaps I should just disable ordinator and start with a fresh character. I'm thinking I won't miss it anyway.

I'll admit, I tend to rely on bound weapons (especially Bound Bow) to level up Conjuration. The xp from summoned atronachs is small potatoes, so I'd rather have one ready before I get aggro at all. Combine that with a sneak attack using Bound Bow, and it's a pretty sure thing that the atronach will get the enemies' attention first. It may seem "gamey," but considering that Conjuration spells are of the "fire and forget" variety (as opposed to the spam fire of Destruction), it seems silly for their workhorse spells to give such low xp.

As for Winterhold, you'll win it for the Imperials at some point, so maybe focus on the Civil War for now? Also, a trip into the Soul Cairn (if you have Dawnguard) will net you some nice summons - the downside, of course, being that it involves a trip to the Soul Cairn... Barring that, you can still get Adept-level Conjuration and Destruction spells from Falion and Farengar, respectively. Finally, I don't know how you feel about Restoration, but there are mods with spells that let you heal Atronachs (the aforementioned http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/60796/?, for instance). "Arcane Healing" from that mod let me heal a Flame Atronach through that last room in Mzulft after an embarassingly bad pull... Conversely, there are "heal undead" spells in Dawnguard if you go the Vampire route - but I've never actually tried those.

If it's mainly dragons that are giving you trouble, though, I don't see a problem with adjusting the settings in Deadly Dragons back down to something manageable. I haven't used the mod, but it looks like it has a variety of options for fine-tuning dragon strength - maybe play with those until you find a challenging but do-able configuration? Once you get comfortable fighting dragons with that config, you can push the envelope a little bit further.

And don't get discouraged! Different people have different approaches to different builds, and for me it's not so much "the build" as it is finding my stride with it. For instance, I tend to favor sneaky ranged types, and I found everything else really frustrating when I first tried them (e.g. every variety of "pure" mage or fighter). Now, though, I have about half a dozen characters with off-the-wall builds that I find equally fun and engaging. Some builds work, some builds don't, and some builds work for some people but not others. It's at least as much about exploration as it is optimization, IMO.

Edited for incorrect link

This is unnecessary. If you conjure something before combat, you don't immediately get XP. BUT if you enter combat before your summons disappears, you get the XP as soon as the game engine determines combat has begun.

Decided to play with a build on the vault. The vigilant, if you care to know which one. I've tried a paladin character a few times, never really worked out well. Well this build is essentially a paladin, well a vigilant of stendarr technically. His primary skills are one-handed, restoration, and alteration. He also apparently makes use of conjuration (for bound bow, and in my case bound cloak), block, and heavy armor. But really that's mostly for later on. For the first 30 levels, you play basically as a battlemage. But once you get to level 30, you join the dawnguard and transition into a build that relies more on armor (you actually wear robes for the first 30 levels, only your gauntlets and boots are heavy armor) and crossbows and such. You eventually no longer need alteration since you're now wearing actual armor, but you still use restortation for the dawnguard spells. This is apparently supposed to take you to level 60. I've never gotten a character that high, bc the few times I do fine, I get bored with the character around level 40. By switching up around level 30, hopefully I'll stick with him for long enough to actually see end-game content for once, like dragon priests and such. I'm actually quite looking forward to it.

Oh, and I disabled ordinator. I figured that its not really worth it unless you want to change the end-game up a bit.

Oh, and I felt like I needed to acknowledge this. Yeah, that sounds a lot more practical. Thank you for telling me that.