I was thinking about the opening to Skyrim, and for some reason it never clicked until now that the priest of Mara performing the last rites for the Stormcloaks seems to be offering their final prayer according to Imperial beliefs. Why is that?

Is it an oversight in the writing? Or is it showing how the Empire is imposing its religious beliefs on the Nords? In which case, why? Even with Talos worship outlawed currently, ignoring the Nords' afterlife of Sovngarde in place for Aetherius seems unnecessary. The Imperials have shown little interest in converting the Nords in the past because, for the most part, they worship the same beings, just under different identities. But Sovngarde and Aetherius are entirely different.

I recall from somewhere in the lore that Aetherius is the believed afterlife of a few other races, such as the Bretons (don't beat me with the book too hard if that's not right). There's even a few Argonian ghosts in ESO that talk about wanting their spirits released to Aetherius (but I know how people feel about ESO lore so let's not go too far into that). And in Skyrim, one Nord mentions how because he's a farmer (or something serf-y) rather than a warrior that "there'll be no Sovngarde for me." If not, where will he go? Will he too go to Aetherius, and Sovngarde is reserved only for the very best of the Nordic people?

Could that then be the point of the priestesses' prayer? By insulting the Stormcloaks by saying that they won't go to Sovngarde? Or is there other possibilities?

The sentiments of the prayer, at least on the priestess' part, seems genuine. However, considering the full text ("As we commend your souls to Aetherius, blessings of the Eight Divines upon you, for you are the salt and earth of Nirn, our beloved...."), it's not surprising the Stormcloaks take offense.

Sovngarde supplements the Eight/Nine Divines to modern Nords. Entry is reserved for Nords who "[die] valiantly in honorable combat," according to http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sovngarde,_a_Reexamination. So mentioning Aetherius isn't "imposing Imperial beliefs." Remember that the priestess is also addressing the player, who may not be a Nord. An execution probably doesn't "count" for going to Sovngarde, though Roggvir seems to think it does.

I don't recall any Nords boasting about being bound for Sovngarde, so it's possible that you just don't assume you'll make the cut. Invoking Sovngarde as a battle cry doesn't necessarily attest to the speaker's belief that they'll wind up there; it can just be taken to mean that they'll fight like hell.

I assume that the purpose of the prayer is the same as it would be in any other Imperial Last Rites, which is presumably to ask the gods to give the subjects a decent afterlife or some such. The beliefs of the condemned aren't relevant to that. So far as an Imperial priest is concerned, they will go to Aetherius and if Sovngarde does exist, it's within Aetherius.

because Skyrim is the game that forgot the Nord and Imperial Religions are different for 80% of the game

Because the Empire shares a different worldview than the traditional Nordic one and has been imposing it on Skyrim for a while now. "Blessings of the Eight Divines" and the response "For the love of Talos shut up" shows that the dialogue is an intentional oversight and perhaps outright mockery for the people who the Empire considered traitors/criminals.

I wanted to see worship of Gods under their Nordic names (Jhunal, Stuhn, Shor etc.) and the animal totems but it's not really a thing besides puzzles in nordic ruins. Such a shame.

On the other hand it makes sense that those gods are often mentioned in passing or seen in the background given the Imperialization of Skyrim. At the end of the day we still go to bloody Sovngarde, meet Tsun, get embroiled in a Talos debate and defeat Alduin in Sovngarde like Wulfharth did in legends. The only problem I have, for the most part, is the Greybeard's referring to Akatosh at all and referring to Kynareth as Kyne. If that old Nord huntsman can respect his old Nordic tradition shouldn't the Greybeard's have been able to be a bit more.. religiously Nordic? Would have liked to see more to do with Kyne in general, like the witches and stuff we saw on Solstheim in Bloodmoon.

From the Loremaster that doesn't know [censored] about the Lore....

You mean the Loremaster that works closely to Bethesda to ensure accuracy?

I'm still remembering that thread where all your "points" that ESO's lore is horrible were easily countered, so much that you just stopped showing up. You just keep proving to everyone that you're the one that doesn't know [censored] about the lore.

Heaven? I recall during Oblivion we didn't like how writers have made some generic abrahamic-slapped on description on the afterlife. Crystal Dragon God Jesus and Imperial church became a thing after all...


Was it too hard to just use Aethurius? Consistency? The word heavenward can be forgiven then in that case since language difference and it is conveying the meaning.


Eh. Whatever. It's Open Source.

Fans usually make a very clear distinction between Aetherius and Oblivion. There isn't such a consensus in the games. The Dunmer were explicitly described as believing that their dead went to Oblivion* and the Psijics believe that at least some do. It isn't a huge stretch of the imagination to suggest that the Ayleids might have. "Heaven" doesn't have the baggage that's associated with Aetherius and Oblivion and given the multicultural nature of the cult of the eight divines, it may well be called "heaven" for that reason. Besides, tian is usually translated as "heaven" and that's hardly Abrahamic.

*Just look at this paragraph from Ancestors and the Dunmer:

"The existence of Oblivion is acknowledged by all Tamriel cultures, but there is little agreement on the nature of that otherworld, other than it is the place where the Aedra and Daedra live, and that communication and travel are possible between this world and Oblivion through magic and ritual.

The Dunmer do not emphasize the distinction between this world and Oblivion as do the human cultures of Tamriel. They regard our world and the otherworld as a whole with many paths from one end to the other rather than two separate worlds of different natures with distinct borders. This philosophical viewpoint may account for the greater affinity of Elves for magic and its practices."

Except the context we're dealing here is a priest of Akatosh talking about the Mannish religions and the afterlife, dealing with Aethurius itself. Why does it need to be called heaven when the word Aethurius itself encompass all the Divine's realms and the afterlife concerning them? It's redundant to even call it heaven as within the TES language they would call it the Aethurs or ether instead.

Heaven is a useless term in TES, I agree. It evokes different imagery than what is appropriate when thinking about TES mythology.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_24

We also have "...Salmo is famous for his sweetrolls! One taste, and you are in heaven...".

So I have provided two (there are more) uses of "heaven" in pre-Online sources, which includes "heaven" referring to the sky's expanse and "heaven" meaning a state of contentment. Such uses are derived from heaven-as-afterlife.

There's a http://www.imperial-library.info/content/seven-fights-aldudagga that I skimmed which seems to use "heaven" in the sense of "deities" or "realm where deities reside."

As an oath, we have "gods above" from Skyrim, which also suggests that deities reside in or higher than the sky or watch from such a vantage point (i.e., "heavenward").

It is entirely possible that the Online usage of "heaven" as a catch-all term for an afterlife is an attempt to cover the asses of prior Elder Scrolls writers who have used "heaven," "heavens," or "heavenward" without considering the etymological background of those words.

And what does that have to do with the context concerning Aethurius?

Heaven in the context you use is appropriate because it's talking about the sky's expanse (which includes Oblivion and Aethurius, beyond and between) and state of the contentment, which Aethurius doesn't invoke because Aethurius is talking about a place or realms of the afterlife.

Note also in Kirkbride's writing and Vivec's Lesson he's writing in a poetry style form or a storyteller, it's the same as the Edda or any other Epics out there translated in English. Hence why we see the word heaven in place of their native word because by then the word heaven serves the purpose and its meaning. It's a description that we are familiar, but it's not something we use to call something for what it is.

In the case I'm arguing, the Priest of Akatosh is not talking in some poetic sense. He's answering straight-forward questions where Aethurius again serves a better clearer meaning compare to heaven where it's too vague, often use describing in a mystical sense.

You're focusing on Aetherius, but it's possible that the Chantry believed:

• that the afterlife isn't in Aetherius in spite of what other cults say.


• in a different definition of Aetherius.


• that Aetherius is too vague a term, heaven being something within it, but not covering all of it.


• that whether the afterlife is specifically in Aetherius or somewhere else hasn't been explicitly revealed to humanity.

That quote from Ancestors and the Dunmer demonstrates that the term "Oblivion" has historically been used inconsistently between cultures; note that one property the author said was common between them contradicts the usual fan description that better matches On Oblivion. "Aetherius" is probably similarly inconsistent. Aetherius in Daggerfall certainly didn't remind me of anything I've heard about it since. I'm guessing that "heaven" is a term that more consistently describes the afterlife in which the priest believes than any other. "Celestial paradise home of the gods and the dead" would be more of a mouthful.

That I can concede at least when it comes to the Chantry believing, but it feels like a sorry excuse at the fact they had to call it heaven with a capital H. It feels... generic and tacky, out of place when you know a certain word could have done better to fit the context and the answer to the question.

But for all we know, the Far Shores that the Redguard spoke about might be talking about the next world and not some afterlife. So if that's what they want to bubble wrap all the divine realms and celestial afterlife, fine.