How do you think Mages guild should work and what kind of quests/requirements it should have?

And when you look at examples in Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim - which one did you like most, why and what would you change there?

I'm askin because I think that creating mages guild is the most difficult in comparison to thieves guild/warriors guild and sometimes it seems like devs are not really sure what should be the focus (atleast the latest focus on searching books doesn't work well for me), so what it should be for you?

My favorite Mages Guild was the one in Morrowind. One had to meet the necessary requirements in order to advance in rank. I also liked how it had the Mages Guild and the native House Telvanni to choose from., for your magical needs. The factions should focus on magical study and archeology. I really liked the first quest of the College of Winterhold questline, where Tolfdir taught the students about the dangers of magic, then took the class on an archeological expedition.

Conceptually, Morrowind. It's focus on the commercial core of the Mages Guild was the best, most honest representation of how the guild works. It's not an institution for learning and experimentation, it's a regulatory body for the easy consumption of Magic for the masses. Mechanically, however, it was ham-fisted and poorly executed, requiring arbitrary number thresholds to advance in rank and encouraging development of skills that ultimately have nothing to do with running a business. And a business it was.

Oblivion took a major step down, by turning the Mages Guild into some institution of higher learning, and then having almost none of that learning represented in the faction at all. On the plus side, it is decently paced and while the story is paper thin, the way it's developed it pretty good. Until Manimarco, of course.

Skyrim at least moved away from the Guild, and actually featured an institution of magical education instead of misrepresenting what the Mages guild was about. It even managed to fit in a lesson and a field trip. It then goes wildly off the rails with Skyrim's usual total disregard for anything approaching good pacing.

All three are inherently flawed, but for different reasons. It's rate Oblivion as the weakest, though just barely. None of them manage a 5/10 though.

What they need to do is decide what they want the Mages organisation to be. Is it a commercial enterprise like the Guild, or an institution for learning like the College of Winterhold? Trying to do both isn't going to work, and shouldn't be bothered with.


I'm not partial to either particular approach, so long as it's consistent.

The one good thing about the next game, as I see it, is that Bethesda has an opportunity to overhaul the guild from the ground up, if they so choose. I actually kind of hope they ditch the Mages Guild altogether and do something entirely new. Maybe bring in the Synod or the College of Whispers. Or invent an organization we have never seen before.

If they go back to the Morrowind concept of Mages-for-Hire, then skill requirements make little sense to me. If they go with the educational slant of the College of Winterhold or the second half of Oblivion's Mages Guild then I can see a case for skill requirements. I suppose I could live with either approach, as long as it was not done in Bethesda's usual half-assed manner.

I am not fond of becoming the head of any guild. I want to play an adventurer, not a bureaucrat. The way I see it, anyone with a talent for administration could run a guild better than some scruffy, battle-scarred, road-weary, flea-bitten adventurer. Fighting battles and killing people does not necessarily make one fit to run an organization. The Dwight D. Eisenhowers of this world are few and far between, in my opinion.

I would let anyone into the guild. But the further up our characters climb the organizational ladder the more restrictions I would impose. It would be very difficult to get to the top of the guild. If they went with a Morrowind-style service organization I would impose some Speechcraft and reputation requirements. If they go with the educational approach, I would impose some magic skill and reputation requirements. I haven't thought out how I would implement all this in a coherent way, so don't ask me.

Yes, I loved that field trip. I also liked the classroom and casting the shield spell. I even liked the fact that we had to prove ourselves just to get inside the place. It was absurdly easy, but nevertheless I thought it was a nice touch.

I will admit I was disappointed in Oblivion's Mages Guild. I liked the idea of recommendations but they felt too quick, too easy to me. The last time I did the Bruma recommendation I bumped into J'skar about five feet away from Jeanne Frasoric's desk, talked to him, walked the five feet back to Jeanne Frasoric, got my recommendation from her, and was on my way. That was it.

The Arcane University was a disappointment to me as well. I never had the feeling that any actual studying was happening there. A handful of generic "students" wandered the grounds, talking to each other about Mudcrabs. The named NPCs stood around like World of Warcraft NPCs, waiting to hand out quests or sell spells. It all felt too lifeless, too static to me.

I loved that, but like most of the things in Skyrim it had a good first impression then it just went off the rails really fast. If they had kept giving you more lessons, more field trips it would have been great! Instead it's Lesson > Field Trip > Arch Mage

I'm rather keen on magic factions that have interests outside magic and research (especially technocratic ambitions). That could said for almost all the ones we've had besides the College of Winterhold, although in TESII and ESO, the Mages Guild quests are generally concerned with that (albeit with the player acting more like battlemage/nightblade support a lot of the time). Even in TESIII, Edwina and Skink's tasks mostly entail gathering research materials.

Also, I think the ivory tower feel that the Guild has in the old games would fun and more appropriate for an institution that doesn't exist to provide the public a service.

That said I don't have much idea about how to make the gameplay of research related quests much more fun than "fetch the book". For a research based faction, I would suggest some heavily scripted field investigations. And not necessarily in Dwemer/Ayleid ruins, there might be some interesting paranormal activity in a town.

Similar to Morrowind, but instead of dependency on skill and attribute levels to advance, you prove your aptitude for the guilds favored skills (and attributes if present) by demonstrating your power to senior guildsmen/women.

At least as of Oblivion, it was both. It regulated magic use in the Empire, so you couldn't teach or really use it without the Guild's sanction. I suppose you could argue it's not technically the Guild that needs to do the teaching, but it is under the Guild's purview that someone is allowed to teach legally. Obviously, in game it doesn't really reach that mark, but that's what it should've been like, IMO.

One thing I liked about Oblivion (and Skyrim kept somewhat) was the inclusion of lectures. At certain times, students would get together and a presenter would talk about certain topics relevant to magic and the arcane. This was a neat way to present tidbits of lore, and it would be nice to see it expanded upon. Maybe actually tell the player they exist and when they can see them (I only realized they were there when I stumbled upon one in progress; you'd think prospective students would be told of them and encouraged to attend), and have lectures talk about things that, if you're paying attention, could lead you to areas where you can find secret spells or artifacts and such. Hidden quests that aren't thrown at you with "STARTED: FIND THE THING" (and a helpful arrow pointing to the thing), and instead, you just hear about it while learning and investigate it on your own.

I would like the "mages guild" (not The Mages Guild, which collapsed after the Oblivion Crisis, but whatever magic-oriented group the player can join) to be an institution of learning and research focused on arcane knowledge (it can ask you to do mercenary work as a way to improve yourself, your skills and knowledge of the world, but the guild itself should focus on learning and research). If they're going to do guilds correctly, they shouldn't be focused on mercenary work that anyone can do with whatever skillset they have. If a thief or warrior can accomplish the tasks given by the mages guild, what's the point of having it be a mages guild? And I'd prefer not having one homogeneous mercenary guild replace specialized guilds that can focus on different aspects of character builds.

I liked the presentation of Oblivion's Vahtacen quest, that a group of mages were excavating and researching the place and you get sent there to help (pretty similar to Sarthaal, really). Upon getting there and figuring out the lock on the door, it just happens to lead to a dungeon for you to explore and find a thing. It's presented less as mercenary work, and more about research and discovery that just happened to involve needing to kill a bunch of undead. There are many ways the quest could've been improved, certainly, but the idea was there.

I like the mage's guild as the big authoritarian group from Daggerfall that will have control of magical use or they will kill your ass. Killing members who experimented outside of regulations was a bread a butter type quest, and this is from a group that built Frankenstein monsters on the regular and kept a room for summoning daedra lords. The idea of the civilian government heavily regulating mages to check their power seems like a common theme in the Elder Scrolls and that has driven so many into seclusion.

Ok, so the base question seems to be "What is the Mage's Guild?"

So, if I may be excused a grammar digression, "Mage" is the root word of "Mage's" and "Mage" is the root word of "Magic". Well, by transitive property of Old French, Greek, and Ancient Persian. Anyway. Mages are people who are all about magic. Learning, using, studying, disseminating, controlling, etc and so on.

So I'm thinking something closer to TESII, where there were (poorly-implemented) factions within the Mage's Guild. Let me use quests as anology. So let's say you've got Orcy McOrcFace. He's an Orc. He likes heavy armour, and heavy weapons. What's he got to do with the Mage's Guild? Lots.

So some mage found out some fancy gizmo they want is being held by a bandit chief. The gizmo is, say, a magical claymore. Now, the mage wants it to study it, because it's a good example of its kind. So he hires Orcy McOrcFace to "Kindly retrieve the item. I'll give you Xk gp." Now, at this point, Orcy McOrcFace goes out and murders the bandits, grabs the gizmo, and at this point, has a choice: Keep the claymore (gizmo), and take a reputation hit, or return it, and lose the neat weapon, but gain a bunch of gold.

This is the sort of quest a pure fighter-type could get from the Mage's Guild; and, in fact, might be a high-ranking member of the Retrievers (or whatever). Very well-paid, but they have pretty much nothing to do with directing the day-to-day activities of the guild.

OTOH, a there might also be Field Archaeologists who delve ancient ruins to find lost knowledge. All stuff the PC could do, and NPCs could have as a profession/faction. All pretty pie-in-the-sky, but if TESII-style quests make a good, and improved, comeback, it could be done. So, in short, the Mage's Guild might be a loose association of people whose primary interest lies in magic stuff, whether that stuff is finding/buying/selling magic items, making magic items, doing research, whatever.

...Does that make sense, or do I need more sleep?

Wouldn't that be better as a fighter's guild (or Mercenary Guild or whatever) quest? In Oblivion, there was a quest that put this in reverse. You were part of the Mage's Guild, and someone from the Fighter's Guild was hired to protect you as you delved into some Ayleid ruin. In your scenario, it makes more sense to me that you'd be a warrior in the fighter's guild, and there's a quest where Smarty McSmartPants hires you to go somewhere to retrieve a magical gizmo weapon thingy so they can study it.

Being a warrior in the mage's guild, who just waits to get a request that relies on your fighting prowess, doesn't seem practical. It's like you as a firefighter getting a job with a pizzeria so they can call you for help if a fire breaks out. Sure, it may happen, but it's a very impractical setup for both of you... better for you to join the firefighters, where you can help all people with fires and not just that pizzeria, and the pizzeria can call any of the firefighters when they need help with a fire and not just you.

You have a point in that the Mage's Guild can hire the Fighter's Guild; but the downside to contract work is, you never quite know what quality, consistency, or frequency of actual help you can get. In which case, it makes sense to keep your own "in-house" talent.

Except for any sizable guild with a good reputation, it's more cost effective to hire from them as needed instead of maintaining your own extra in-house group that you need on occasion. At best, I could see a mercenary guild having a small contingent that's dedicated solely to the mage's guild, if mages ask for so much work from them that it's beneficial to have a dedicated group that's on-call just for them. But at that point, you have the same mercenary guild that's just restricted in the quests it can give. I'd prefer to see a mage's guild that focuses on magey things like studying and learning things about the arcane, and have a mercenary guild deal with mercenary work.

Though this have given me an idea. Have the mage's guild focus on researching and learning things, which the guild questline can focus on. The other guilds can do similar, focusing on their individual niches and having a questline around them. Then have a separate Mercenary's Guild which focuses on odd jobs for people, with jobs that have a fair amount of involvement with the other guilds. The Mercenary's Guild quests would be largely radiant, so randomized and repeatable (but with a large number of them, so there's plenty of variety). Now, when you join, say, the mage's guild, you have the option of signing up for being available for the guild's mercenary work. This effectively makes you part of the mercenary guild, but only be given mercenary quests that involve the mage's guild (on top of the mage's guild's own questline). Alternatively, you can join the Mercenary's Guild directly and get access to all the mercenary quests for all the guilds, without being part of those guild.

Didn't you meet a member of one of those in Skyrim? One of the Dwemer ruins IIRC?

Hmm...Good points. To use a modern example, corporations do hire security, but they nearly always hire a company; not run their own. "Run their own" would be more for the Mage's Guild's Very High Security Areas. What Very High Security Area? You don't have clearance for that, chummer.

...And I think I'm mixing my mixed genres, now.

I like this idea. I've always found the "Associate" rank awkward, as it's really "Probationary member". If instead "Associate" meant "Associated with the guild, but not intending to be a member", that could be a way to do this idea. As an Associate, I'm thinking you wouldn't get assigned jobs unless you showed up and asked for one, and it's pretty much "stuff other people don't want to do." However, if it's something your other guild(s) want done, the decision would be based on your rank in the guild that wants that job done, not your "Associate" rank in the Mercenaries Guild.

...And maybe I need to get to sleep, because it's closer to dawn than dusk.

For the Mages Guild (and guilds in general) I'd like to take some aspects that Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim all had. A rough outline:

-From Daggerfall, I'd want a 1-3 day period between officially ranking up (in Daggerfall, you had to wait a month in-game before going up in rank after achieving the skill level and reputation requirements, but that would be way too long for the scale of the later games). I'd also like to see a little bit of restriction to certain services until you reach a high enough rank.

-From Morrowind, I would like to have some more menial jobs, but not in the main questline. However, depending on the situation, you could use these to help you rise in the lowest ranks.

-From Oblivion, I would like the pacing that the questline had.

-From Skyrim, I want the greater emphasis on story that was there, and (specifically for the Mages Guild) also implement some more lectures where appropriate.

Because of the current situation of the Mages Guild, Bethesda should capitalize on the schism between the Synod and College of Whispers. What exactly differentiates the two? Is one more business-oriented while one is more learning-oriented, for example? Do they mix both learning and business? My vision of the current Mages Guild is going to depend in some part on what they do with the two.

As for which Mages Guild I like best? Well, I can't really say for sure.

-As I have mentioned elsewhere on these forums I love Skyrim's College of Winterhold questline, but lament how much potential it wasted (e.g., the Augur of Dunlain and how he is tied to the Great Collapse, which I believe he was at least partly responsible for; could've done a bit more with the Psijiic Order).

-Oblivion had great pacing, but the battle against Mannimarco was garbage and Hannibal Traven was a boring Archmage (I really didn't feel any emotional attachment when he sacrificed himself so that you could take on Mannimarco).

-Morrowind did what it tried to do well for the most part, but the quests could get tedious, there wasn't much story, and the research into the Disappearance of the Dwemer felt like it was treated more like a slight footnote in history as opposed to the very important event that it is supposed to be.

-Daggerfall had no actual questline to speak of. This one is definitely not my favorite, although I wouldn't say it is bad.

My hope is that any future magic-related guild ends up a bit closer to Morrowind's approach than in the later games. The MG in Morrowind gave out fairly basic "fetch" assignments for new members (which should also be available to non-members on good terms with the guild). These required little or no actual magical ability, merely some leg work, but served as a semi-tutorial to lead you to several different regions and introduce a few basic concepts of potions and ingredients.

They could have included delivering a letter or items to individual mages not easily accessible through a Guild Guide, besides more routine collection of dues, rather than the "collect or kill" extreme presented in Morrowind. The point should be to give you an in-game reason to venture to other areas of the game world which relate to magic, and give you a quick overview of everything that's covered under the topic of "magic"....everything that should be covered by a tutorial, but done as an integral part of the game. Ideally, as you advanced from the absolute bottom tier, the assignments should assume that you have at least some minimal proficiency with magic, and offer training in the fundamental spells needed for the current task if you don't already have them. Skyrim did the opposite approach, just dump you into the situation unprepared and put all of the needed work-arounds there on the spot in case you didn't have the needed skills.

Rather than starting the game with a lengthy tutorial dungeon as in OB, some of the individual combat, magic, and stealth concepts could be introduced as part of the associated guilds and organizations. If you want to learn about magic, see the Mages Guild, and either attend an introductory lecture or inquire about training. Same for learning stealth-related skills, where you see the Thieves Guild and sit in on a workshop for lockpicking or ask questions about the profession. The game doesn't need to burden a fighter-only character with the details about alchemy, enchanting, lock picking, or bribery, but they're there for the asking at the respective guilds.

To add more opinionated text to this heap, radiant quests should be available as basic "filler" jobs at any level, whether a member or not, although the members should get some of the "better" work, as well as the pre-written quests leading to advancement (hopefully interspersed with basic "work"). The idea of putting the radiant quests at the end, where you can't access them until/unless you've already finished the written questline, was a VERY bad one in my opinion.

On one hand, I want to say that I'd like to have a mages guild that forces you to actually learn magic, not like in Skyrim where it's arguably easier to do the College of winterhold as an archer or warrior. On the other hand, I think that forcing you to learn magic would be hard to justify, as people might not want to because they might be roleplaying as a barbarian or warrior.

Basically, what I mean is that I'd like to see a mages guild that's made easier by knowing magic, but not impossible by a warrior.

Context is sort of important. Since the Mages Guild as we know it is basically dead, with Synod and the College of Edgelords Whispers now doing what it once did, and if Synod is any indication, is basically operating directly to cozy up to the empire. If anything, we're likely to go the Skyrim route and have a local Mages conclave located in one singular location in each given land. High Rock could be a notable exception, since independent magical institutions/colleges could be a thing depending on each individual kingdom. If its still around, Elinhir in Hammerfell (I.E The City of Mages) could easily play the role of what Winterhold did in Skyrim. Elsweyr and Valenwood are sort of up in the air, and Argonia is its own can of worms. Alinor has the Psiijics, but they are supposed to be exclusive, and if they were to appear in the main game, I suspect they'd play a decent chunk of the MQ, if not an outright faction dedicated to it.

I'd like to see ranking to return, especially where the idea of just being an Associate is concerned. You're not technically apart of the staff, but more of a busy body who can get access to goods and services, while doing some minor jobs for them on the side. Its a good way to set yourself up for quests and being a minor part of that group, while not actually diving into it fully without any real skills in magic.

The "College of Edgelords" comment gave me a good chuckle.

Personally, I'd like to see multiple locations where the Synod and College of Whispers operate, instead of one singular location a la Skyrim (although it made sense for the game). If they really want to establish themselves as influential institutions they will need to have several bases of operation, although they will have to be wary to not spread themselves out too thin. Of course, this may depend on where the game is set, but generally speaking this is something I would like to see.

Two competing full mages guild (rather than Mage's Guild and necromancers that are mostly there as another set of bandits) is something I like from Morrowind, as well.

Just don't do it like the Skyrim civil war, where I don't like either of them. I don't want to play for either, and it's one of the things that actively keeps me from playing the game. At least with the Telvanni there was the possibility of a reformist leader.

Also, I'd like the word to actually be in a better shape after the events of the game. Don't just keep on piling on apocalypses, because after the fifth one you have to invent some loony tunes villains, then turn them Darth Nerd.

...Or something about multiple apocalypses getting boring after a while. I want to save Tamriel, and for it to actually stay saved for some appreciable length of time.

Like, 200 years? There was a pretty appreciable period of stability between the Red Year, and the Great War. Almost a century of 'Nothing happened'. I mean, in the real world, we rank the most prosperous and successful period in history to a 30 year period where no one really did anything, so triple that is frankly so unrealistically peaceful that it might as well come from a Disney Princess movie.