Two Grand Councils in Morrowind? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:55 am

Hi, I am having a debate over the Grand Council and the successor of assassinated Indoril High Councilor at the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind_talk:House_Hlaalu#Source and could use some input from the lore masters here.

What was questioned is whether there are multiple Grand Councils, with the one in Ebonheart only being responsible for Vvardenfell. I am under the assumption that there is only one Grand Council, modeled after the First Council, created by Vivec after the Armistice to keep house wars in check and preserve face for the Dunmer.

Second, "On Morrowind" only mentions that a Hlaalu Noble replaced the (unnamed) Indoril High Councilor that refused to step down after the Armistice. Is there anything that suggests which noble that could have been, Vedam Dren perhaps?

There are more questions raised there at the link, but those are the main points. Thanks for your help.

» Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:45 pm

Hi, I am having a debate over the Grand Council and the successor of assassinated Indoril High Councilor at the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind_talk:House_Hlaalu#Source and could use some input from the lore masters here.

What was questioned is whether there are multiple Grand Councils, with the one in Ebonheart only being responsible for Vvardenfell. I am under the assumption that there is only one Grand Council, modeled after the First Council, created by Vivec after the Armistice to keep house wars in check and preserve face for the Dunmer.

Vvardenfell has its own Grand Council, but to me this apparently seems a different thing to 'the' Grand Council that was reinstated by King Helseth which presumably has jurisdiction over the entire province.

Second, "On Morrowind" only mentions that a Hlaalu Noble replaced the (unnamed) Indoril High Councilor that refused to step down after the Armistice. Is there anything that suggests which noble that could have been, Vedam Dren perhaps?

I think it's unlikely. It would mean Dren is incredibly ancient, way past the normal lifespan for Mer. It's possible - there are other examples, like Barenziah - but it's just a possibility without proof.

» Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:05 pm

The three main points in the discussion were:

1. Does the Grand Council in Ebonheart only have a vote in things that concern the whole of Morrowind?
2. Is the Hlaalu noble who replaced the Indoril High Councilor after the war with Tiber Septim Vedam Dren?
3. The UESP article says that Vedam Dren is married to Katariah Dren. Is this correct?

My answer is no, to all three questions.

1. There seem to be two Grand Councils mentioned in the lore.
A. A council that decides in matters concerning the whole province:

Three of Nerevar's associates among the Orthodox Houses, Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil, succeeded to control of the re-created First Council, re-named the Grand Council of Morrowind, and went on to be come the god-kings and immortal rulers of Morrowind known as the Tribunal, or Almsivi.

Nerevar was killed in the battle, and his ring lost, but Nerevar's alliance survives in Morrowind's ruling political institution, the Grand Council.

In First Era barbaric Dunmer culture, settled Dunmer clans (the Great Houses) and nomadic Dunmer tribes (like the Ashlanders) were roughly equal in numbers and wealth. Under the civilized peace of the Grand Council, and with the strong central authority of the Temple, the economic and military power of the settled Dunmer quickly outstripped that of the nomadic Dunmer.

Actions such as this have led many to label King Helseth as the latest in the lineage of Imperial figureheads, though some of his other actions would cast doubt on this pronouncement. Helseth's reformation of the Grand Council, which includes the heads of all the Great Houses, was seen by some as a return to more traditional Dunmer ways.

B. The Grand council in Castle Ebonheart, overseen by Vedam Dren.

Vvardenfell District's Grand Council, presided over by the sovereign Lord Vedam Dren, Duke of Ebonheart and Vvardenfell, is dominated by five interest groups: the three Great Houses, the Temple, and the Imperial colonists. The Temple and House Redoran are champions of ancient Dunmer customs and privileges, and uncompromising and intolerant worshippers of the native religion call the Tribunal Temple, which venerates three immortal god-kings -- Lord Vivec, Lord Sotha Sil, and Lady Almalexia.

Castle Ebonheart is the seat of Imperial authority on Vvardenfell. Here Duke Vedam Dren, Duke of Ebonheart, and the Vvardenfell Grand Council determine law and policy for the Vvardenfell administrative district. The Imperial cult shrine here serves the Duke, his retainers, and the castle's garrisons, and is also an administrative center for the Imperial cult presence on Vvardenfell.

Duke Vedam Dren, Duke of Ebonheart, is head of the Grand Council and Uriel VII's representative on Vvardenfell.

2. Nothing is known about who replaced the Indoril High Councilor. The only thing we know is that it was a Hlaalu.

3. Same. No reference found to a Katariah Dren. The only Katariah known is the one who married Mad Pelagius. And although the Wolf Queen Series of books states that she was the Duchess of Vvardenfel, there is no known link between her and Vedam Dren.

» Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:03 am

3. Same. No reference found to a Katariah Dren. The only Katariah known is the one who married Mad Pelagius. And although the Wolf Queen Series of books states that she was the Duchess of Vvardenfel, there is no known link between her and Vedam Dren.

It's possible that the Drens are typically the dukes/duchesses of Vvardenfell; Orvas mentioned that he was next in line and it was said that the Dren family has been prominent in Hlaalu for generations.

» Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:27 pm

Thanks for the replies, it seems like I was blinded by "Grand Council" and ignored the "of Vvardenfell" part. In hindsight, it makes a lot of sense that a trusted mechanism -Grand Council- was used to divvy up the spoils of the Temple District. Of course, House Hlaalu got away with the prize possessions like the plantations and the mine in Caldera

As to Vedam Dren and his anonymous wife, although a ~400 years lifespan isn't impossible for a Dunmer, without any further source and the above possibility of another Grand Council, it is safe to say he didn't replace the Indoril High Councilor. Further, King Hlaalu Helseth added that title to himself, after the reorganization, another argument for the two Council theory.

What remains is that Katariah possible was a Dren, although we have no way of knowing that for sure. She wasn't the wife of Vedam Dren, under any account.