anyone else call BS on this? when i first found out and then he threatened me, it was "buckshot sandwich" time.

on playthroughs now i kill the ghouls to save the humans and feel damn good about it. plus the humans have the armament trade

I think this belongs in the Spoiler Section...


But as to why killing Roy losing you Karma - the good solution to that quest might turn around and bite you in the [censored], but it's still what happens when you take the high ground about it. Not every good choice comes with a happy ending and honestly, I wish there were more like that in the game to make it less Black and White in terms of right and wrong.

Generally, with a good karma character, I just don't do the quest what-so-ever. Leave it unresolved, and everyone's still alive.

Its not good result either way but you know he killed the residents now, the first time through you had no idea. You have an advantage of seeing into the future that multiple play throughs bring.

I just cheat and kill Roy without any karma loss at all. I find some ferals in the tunnels and let them chase me into Roy's quarters. He and his followers side with the ferals and attack me, even if I haven't touched the ferals. I kill 'em all, Tenpenny Tower is safe, and I get 500 caps. Karma loss: 000.

If I usually have to kill someone for whatever reason and know that i'd suffer a karma loss, I'd just make them hostile to me first, usually through speech options. They try to kill me first, I blow there heads off in self defence and boom, no Karma loss

I am definetely going to try this.

This is very unique quest in a sense that there is on clear way to go about this that is blankly considered, "good." I've just beensearching around for a "best possible solution" to this problem... and this may be it.

I had just simply been killing Roy before i activate the quest.....however this road seems a big mor legite.

I think you're missing the point. You get bad karma for killing Roy and his followers, because you are murdering them. YOU are the murderer. It does not matter what Roy decides to do later, that is HIS deal. YOU kill him for money. No matter what his decision is later, you opted to kill, when you had an opportunity to NOT kill. All this said, I prefer the Tower to be human-inhabited, I prefer this ambience rather than the other. So I kill Roy every time. But I do understand the karma hit.

The whole karma idea is bugged throughout the game. Roy threatens everyone in Tenpenny and he's a 'good' guy even after murdering all the residents (assuming he's permitted to live)? Sorry. It doesn't make sense any more that the fact you can hunt down slavers and shoot them on sight for good karma.

Lots of pretty fussy decisions who make karma hard to sett. If take the caps and go out and kill him and his gang it's evil as he has not done anything. Negotiating so the ghouls can live in Tenpenny tower sounds good, yes it's go to hell but it was no way for you to know, yes had you heard Roy discuss that he wanted to kill everybody it would change everything.
Same way, enslaving raiders give bad karma, now if I was a raider I would prefer being enslaved than killed. However you might say you support and expand slavery by doing so it's bad.
And you have the cases who is impossible for the game engine to judge, I once tried to save a wastelander from a radscorpion, Long range and the wastelander was very low in health, Tried a sneak shot on the radscorpion in VAT, around 30% chance for hit but hit the wastelander instead, I got negative karma for murder. No way for the game to tell it was a desperate rescue attempt.

I can understand the scripting/AI not distinguishing the wastelander thing but killing a slaver thats 'minding his business' as they say is different than raiders and creatures attacking the player unprovoked. I don't really see the point of karma. Its not like when we are in Oblivion and have 'unseen forces' watching us.

my main problem is that killing Tenpenny gives you good Karma while killing Roy AFTER he butchered the whole tower gives you bad Karma. just seems like a design oversight. maybe killing Roy before he genocides the tower would be evil, but definately not after

Why not? If someone commits mass murder, how is it that you are in the right, by killing that murderer? Granted, I understand the feeling, but the act itself, is still murder.

Um, 'cause a mass murderer doesn't deserve to live?

"If someone who knew the future, pointed out a child to you and told you that that child would grow up totally evil, to be a ruthless dictator who would destroy millions of lives... could you then kill that child?"


Ultimately, people approach the Tenpenny questline wrong. After the first play through of doing it the "Right Way", we forget that at the time the quest is done in the game, our characters have no idea what's going to happen. They just think they're letting the Ghouls into a safe, sheltered community.

ironically Oblivion did not have a karma system, you had crime but it was ok as long as you avoided getting caught. Yes you had the issue that attacking guards made them report you even if you was hidden and the second arrow killed them but again more a AI feature.
However karma has always been part of fallout.

philosophical debate aside, in the Fallout universe killing evil people is good karma. Roy should have been classified as such (if not before the genocide, then after) just the same as Tenpenny.

and yes you slaughter that kid if you could foresee that he becomes a mass murderer :gun:
just wait till right before the first killing

Except that in the Fallout world, it is expained, the justice system is more simple than ours. If someone commits a capital crime, anyone is allowed to punish for it, without judicial process.

The moral issue I had with this quest is that I simply opened a gate. I hadn't made a deal with Roy and didn't even know what he was planning. Yet all of the inhibitants of TT were slaughtered.

I can see the point of getting bad karma if you side with Tenpenny Tower and murder Roy and his cronies but you shouldn't get bad karma for killing them after they've wiped out TT, surely that would make them evil.

I don't consider offing him, murder - he's a hypocritical bigot with a huge chip on his shoulder. On my very first playthrough, I "helped" Roy, I even convinced the tennants of Tenpenny to allow the ghouls in.. so, how was I rewarded?, that *ick murdered everyone in the tower.. I was PO.. now when I start a new character I "help" Roy enough until he gives me the ghoul mask - then I unleash death on him and his pig followers - I'll take the karma hit it's worth it to be rid of him.

On a totally selfish perspective guys. I sided with Roy to get the Ghoul mask. Saved me a lot of ammo and hassle in the sewers.

Of course you helped Roy. I think we all tried to help Roy our first time out. And at the end we all felt like we had eaten a big poop sandwich. But on your second playthrough, you have the knowledge of the previous one, and that's why you off him. Well, that's why I off him, and the money is desperately needed when I usually take on that quest. It's the second play that is tainted... in a way, as you know the outcome. But first time around, we all tried to do the right thing, at least I think most of us did.

I think Tenpenny Tower is one of those Morally Ambiguous quests. Despite peaceful resolve, you end up finding Roy still kills Tenpenny Tower and claims it for himself. I don't really feel killing him should be counted as an evil act, seeing as Roy is a ruthless bastard. Killing of Tenpenny is evil too. TPT isn't full of evil monsters, just jerks with overly inflated opinions of themselves. Roy is no better than Tenpenny or Burke in my book.

That I totally agree with as your the one thats killing Roy. You also don't know that Roy's gonna kill the people in the tower after you get a compromise to have both groups live in the tower. Its a tough quest but the best option is to kill Roy and his followers.