I like Level Scaling

Post » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:10 am

With all the hate going around I just want to say I enjoy level scaling. I don't have fun running into a wild pack of mobs 30 levels higher than myself. I'm fine with non level scaling, too. I enjoyed Oblivion, I think scaling is a great way to keep content difficult and relevant to your level, instead of outleveling content like is possible without it.


Thank freakin lord. I was HONESTLY beginning to think that i'm the only one who liked scaled leveling. And again, like you, I don't have a problem with no level scaling, thats how 99% of all the other RPGs are, but parts of me actually prefer level scaling. The only true complaint I had about the way Oblivion did it was 1) the uniques quest items shouldn't have been leveled, because honestly even in their best form its not like they would have been game breaking for a level 1 character, and 2) level scaling didn't quite fit with the leveling system in oblivion, specifically the major/minor skills, because then the creatures aren't truly attuned to your overall characters abilities. But to be honest I never really liked major/minor skills, I agree that some skills should start higher based on your background, that only makes sense, but I hate forced specialization. I mean, yes, ABSOLUTELY there should be perks or at least it should be easier for people who want to specialize, in real life specializing your skills is always easier, but being a jack of all trades shouldn't be impossible, or even require hours of power leveling/efficient leveling, because many people throughout history got good at just about everything they did, ever heard of a Renaissance Man?. Thats one of the reasons I'm excited about Skyrim, they lost the major/minor skills, which is something I've been rallying against since Morrowind. But I digress

Anyway, I'm totally fine with the loss of oblivion style level scaling in skyrim. I'd have preferred it to stay, but its ok.
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Ronald
 
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Post » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:00 pm

The problem is that the whole list shouldn't be level-scaled, which is what Oblivion failed to do.

Go ahead. Wander into a Goblin cave at level 30. Chances are, the whole thing will be filled with Goblin Warlords, each one with an insane amount of health, and each one will likely cause you to lose all your charges AND severly damage your weapon before you finally off it.

Let's not forget that because of how Oblivion handled the level-scaling, you could easily make a character WEAKER as their level increases. Unless you did it correctly, you'll be running in terror from Timber Wolves at level 7.

And then there's the issue of "Why should I bother leveling if I'm going to be facing things at level one that will be equally hard to kill at level 10?"

Level scaling is good- the way Morrowind and Fallout handles it. But the way Oblivion handled it was a monstrosity that shouldn't have seen the light of day.


I'll admit if your leveled your character wrong Oblivion could screw you, but thats an issue with tweaking the amount of progression in the enemies per level you gain, not with the system itself.

And WHAT THE CRAP is the big deal about needing some incentive to level? In oblivion I couldn't WAIT to level, BECAUSE I wanted it to be harder, and as for my motivation, yeah, leveling didn't benefit me from a statistical standpoint, but I wanted my battles to be more epic in general, so what did I do? I graduated to the next level of awesomeness. Besides the unbalanced way the creatures leveled, (which was a problem with the way the CHARACTER leveled, not with the scaled leveling system, so if they'd just gotten rid of the major/minor skills like i said before alot of this would've been avoided) and the fact that stuff stopped getting better after level 18-20, i liked leveled scaling.

Honestly though, I don't understand the incentive to level, what is RPG fans obsession with "need to get to the next level, shows how awesome i am, need to get to next level, shows how awesome I am"

To put it bluntly, the last 4 times I beat Oblivion to completion I started the game by power leveling my character to the max,(which again is a CHARACTER leveling problem, not a SCALING leveling issue) Just so that the simplest quest suddenly became a huge, grand epic adventure unto itself. Go fetch this wrong guarded by maybe a few rats? WRONG, 5 Minotaur Kings now stand in your path. Now THATS awesome
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Ellie English
 
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Post » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:06 am

It's confirmed to have Fallout 3 style level scaling, not Oblivion style. So any dungeon you entered previously stays at that level.


So if I somehow manage to explore every dungeon, at least going into the door so it loads the whole level, at level 1, i'm screwed with a weak world.

...great...
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IM NOT EASY
 
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Post » Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:43 pm

So if I somehow manage to explore every dungeon, at least going into the door so it loads the whole level, at level 1, i'm screwed with a weak world.

...great...

That's my big concern as well and unfortunetly a totally valid concern.

I personally think the level "lock" should reset every once in a while, say, every x levels? No (sensable) person can really argue for level 1 enemies for a level 50 character.
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Scarlet Devil
 
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Post » Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:22 am

I HATE level scaling!!!

HATE!!!

Its one thing for some more challenging quests or enemies to appear after a curtain point, it’s another for every scumbag bandit to be leveled and decked out in glass armor so I can get bored spamming the attack button before I have to repair my sword after every stupid little encounter.

That’s not chalanging. That’s boring.

And having enemies at the beginning that you can’t step too yet is awesome. That’s how it should be done. After you grow more powerful, those two bit bandits are nothing to you. You kill them quick and feel like a bad ass. Now you’re ready to move in on those guys that you couldn’t mess with earlier.

Just beefing up old enemies is a boring cop out. (If you ask me)


Why is having an enemy thats just there to show you how far you have to go fun? And as for repairing weapons all the time, thats a combat/leveling/stats problem, health increased faster than damage which made battles crazy longer, but that ISN'T a problem with level scaling.

To me a good game is always pushing you 110%, always forcing you to get a little better as a player. Never more. NEVER less.
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no_excuse
 
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Post » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:59 am

I'll admit if your leveled your character wrong Oblivion could screw you, but thats an issue with tweaking the amount of progression in the enemies per level you gain, not with the system itself.

And WHAT THE CRAP is the big deal about needing some incentive to level? In oblivion I couldn't WAIT to level, BECAUSE I wanted it to be harder, and as for my motivation, yeah, leveling didn't benefit me from a statistical standpoint, but I wanted my battles to be more epic in general, so what did I do? I graduated to the next level of awesomeness. Besides the unbalanced way the creatures leveled, (which was a problem with the way the CHARACTER leveled, not with the scaled leveling system, so if they'd just gotten rid of the major/minor skills like i said before alot of this would've been avoided) and the fact that stuff stopped getting better after level 18-20, i liked leveled scaling.

Honestly though, I don't understand the incentive to level, what is RPG fans obsession with "need to get to the next level, shows how awesome i am, need to get to next level, shows how awesome I am"

To put it bluntly, the last 4 times I beat Oblivion to completion I started the game by power leveling my character to the max,(which again is a CHARACTER leveling problem, not a SCALING leveling issue) Just so that the simplest quest suddenly became a huge, grand epic adventure unto itself. Go fetch this wrong guarded by maybe a few rats? WRONG, 5 Minotaur Kings now stand in your path. Now THATS awesome

I really wish this site had a +rep system =/
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Romy Welsch
 
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Post » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:47 pm

It's a good system in my opinion, but for the die hard fans it's a bad system because they want to get very strong in a short time so that they already have some of the best armor and weapons early in the game! But LS keeps the game fair and funny, so i choose for level scaling. :D

I find being weak for a while to be more fun personally. It's more fun than being overpowered, although I do enjoy (obviously) getting progressively stronger throughout the game.
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Kayla Bee
 
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Post » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:59 pm

although I do enjoy (obviously) getting progressively stronger throughout the game.

To the point where you can look at God and one shot Him?
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Sarah Edmunds
 
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Post » Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:51 pm

I do.

It would make me run and hide. It would make me fear dragons. It would feel like a huge accomplishment when I slay that dragon later on. Most importantly, it would make me feel as though the world evolved according to its own rules.

Good zone /plot design would ensure that you didn't get whacked by a level 50 dragon right out of the turorial. But an early meeting with a high-level dragon, with the choice to fight it or run away, and one of these options obviously wrong, would be amazing.

I really don't get people's need to be able to kill anything at any level / equipment / skillset. What's the point of having enemies at all if there is no danger (other than the danger of forgetting to block once every couple of seconds)?

Enemies should make you consider your options, not just as a player ("how good am I at kiting this guy while throwing fireballs") but as a character in the game ("Should my thief/assassin make a frontal attack on this group of well-armed bandits?"). Fleeing should occasionally be the option that makes most sense, especially if you get in over your head. At the same time, the game world should make enough sense that the more cautious player can work out the probability of getting in over his head, and for the most part avoid this.

At the same time, why is it a problem that, at a high level, some enemies are easy to kill? A lot could be done with low-level enemies to avoid them being boring. Maybe they flee a few times if encountered alone, then gang up on you ten-to-one. Maybe they yield and offer you gold to spare their lives, making them a lot more believable - bandits prey on the weak, right?

Just to be clear: I don't want an easy endgame where you steamroll everything. I want a sense of progression, a believable world, a mortal fear of certain enemies for a large portion of the game, and the freedom to make a mistake. In Oblivion, it was almost impossible to make a bad decision. So, all decisions were meaningless / cosmetic.

The levelling in Fallout 3 was much improved, and the 'intelligent quest system' that they are hinting at (quest dungeon is chosen and populated depending on your level and exploration pattern) sounds worlds better than the Oblivion system, so I'm hopeful. But I would still prefer a game with as little levelling as possible.

The fact that people are calling the Oblivion level scaling 'ok' really bemuses me. It was a huge, huge flaw, and one that negatively effected many other aspects of the game (believable world, character identity, an otherwise reasonably good combat system, thrill of exploration).


You know, something I've noticed between the two sides is the anti-scaled-leveling people are all about "Feeling". Feeling afraid, feeling awestruck at their power, at first, and then at the end feeling bad ass and feeling god like. This game isn't a normal escape to them, its a second life, and they want it to be as horrible as real life, both in how sometimes its too difficult and sometimes its pointlessly easy. They want reality at the cost of gameplay (NOT to say that gameplay takes much of a hit by concentrating on reality, just pointing out that reality comes first and gameplay second)

Pro-S-L people are about the consistency of the game, it should always feel just about the right difficulty, so its never boring. Yeah its unrealistic that the last 10,000 bandits you killed had glass armor, but Pro people are more concerned with having enemies armored enough to survive against them and be a challenge, and also so that these foes will have equally appealing loot after its all over.

I dunno. I guess it just depends which way your coming from. Personally, i tend to remember that ITS JUST A GAME. Its like Mario Bros. Has ANYTHING, EVER made even the slightest bit of sense in those games? no, but thats because they broke reality because gameplay always came first.

Likewise I'd like to say 2 things about TES gameplay. Todd Howard, among others have clearly stated on multiple occasions that the 2 key gameplay elements of TES is sandbox exploration, getting to go and start your quest from whatever starting point you wish and built up from there, and advancement based on what actions you take, rather than on a dumbed down XP system. Thats why my biggest tirade this WHOLE TIME has been that its NOT scaled leveling thats the problems, its the combat, or the way the character levels. These should be tailored around the scaled leveling aspect, because scaled leveling is key to allowing the first key element of TES, freeform, sandbox exploration.
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Micah Judaeah
 
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