Greetings, Morrowind mod users. (First time posting here )

As the title suggests, I'm trying to see if there's any interest in http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1101592-boss-better-oblivion-sorting-software/ (Better Oblivion Sorting Software) support for Morrowind. For those that are unfamiliar with it, it's a small program that will automatically sort your mod load order according to the load order given in a "masterlist" file, which is maintained by project members. The program is written in C++, and does not possess a GUI, doing everything automatically and outputting to a log file, where it notes various bits of information, including the new load order and notes for specific mods. It can differentiate between different mod setups eg. in the event that usage of an overhaul requires some mods to be ordered differently than if the overhaul were not being used. It currently provides load ordering support for over 9000 Oblivion mods, and a few thousand Fallout 3 mods.

Although I am unfamiliar with the Morrowind modding scene, it does a similar job to http://code.google.com/p/mlox/, though without the GUI and custom user rules (though surazel has written an excellent Microsoft Word macro that adds that and more). Currently, BOSS does provide 'token' support for Morrowind, in that the exe will recognise the Morrowind ESM. However, we don't really have a separate masterlist for Morrowind, and that's something that would have to be created for BOSS to be of any use to Morrowind mod users. This masterlist would have to be created by members of this modding community, since it requires people that are familiar with mods (preferably a lot of them) and load ordering to add mods to the masterlist.

My purpose of this thread is to help decide whether or not to remove this token support for Morrowind. If nobody is really interested in using and contributing to BOSS-MW, then I shall petition to remove the support, which will simplify things a bit. On the other hand, if there is a large amount of interest, then it may be a good idea to get a Morrowind contributing team set up.

I should note that when voting in the poll, this is in regards to using BOSS or mlox, not both. If you're perfectly happy with mlox and don't see any reason or feel any need for an alternative, then you should vote 'no' to both questions. The only mlox users I would expect to have voting 'yes' are those that are unhappy with that solution (if there are any). The reason for this is simple: if you've got two projects effectively competing over the same niche, then that reduces the effectiveness of both, since they both rely on user submission for the majority of their improvement. If the user base is split, then you effectively halve the efficiency of solving the problem of automated load ordering. I think that's an important point to keep in mind when voting.

Anyway, thanks for your time!

BOSS is great, but I think it kinda depends on how easy it would be to transfer the rules from Mlox to BOSS. If it's a lot of work we might as well stick with Mlox.

If it's not too much work, I'd probably prefer BOSS.

Sorry, but I had to vote no.

I love Mlox's interface and the information it gives on the mods. I'm also not fond of "automatic" anything.


KF

I agree.
Actually, I have never even used Mlox except out of curiosity, because I know enough about what I am installing and my Load Order is clean to begin with.

Buuuutt.. It's always great to have more Tools and more options, so I still think it's a great idea to go ahead and plan this.
BOSS is great for OB, and I'm sure many players will like it for MW.

It looks to be quite difficult. The rules of Mlox are done per-mod, with each mod having notes, requirements, conflicts, etc. listed under it, completely different to how BOSS does things. It's more verbose than BOSS in this regard, especially with the conflict warnings, but I don't see any way to transfer this to BOSS's masterlist method easily. Unless I'm missing something, which I probably am, but there you go. :shrug:

For the moment I can't use mlox, because of some ASCII related issue I've for years now.

Sure I will use BOSS>>MOSS, but for gods sake change the name to Morrowind Order Sorting Software (MOSS) because the BOSS-MW sounds kinda silly to me.

Hand hurts I'll be brief. I love Mlox, as familiar as I am with mods and load order it didn't realize where problems - for that it earned my love. Still I think that there's room for improvement and I'm not entirely unwilling to consider the concept that that's possible with BOSS. Really I think it's Johnny Moonsugar's opinion on the issue that matters most to me, since he's the life saver that brought us Mlox and a right standup guy, I'll use whatever he thinks is best :shrug:

I'm perfectly happy with Mlox. I haven't had any problems with it so far and it's done a great job in helping me detect conflicts and sort my load order. I also use BOSS for both Fallout 3 and Oblivion and it works great for both programs. I like Mlox's gui for Morrowind, makes things a bit easier than reading things in a text file. So I'm going to vote no on this one, I'd rather see work continue on refining Boss for Oblivion and especially the newer Fallout 3 and Mlox for Morrowind. But that's just me.

Truthfully, we already have mlox, which I use and works great, so I have to vote no for both of them.

Honestly, I don't see a reason to release a program that does the same exact thing as another program unless there is some sort of improvement or has better features over the other program.

Hmm, with 16 voters, it looks like it's still pretty much 50/50 in terms of interest in BOSS. Could voters please also post a quick explanation of the reasons of their vote? The reasons given for the negative votes posted above are quite interesting, and shows mostly that people are quite happy with mlox, and don't see the reason in having another project doing the same thing. This is (IMHO) quite a sensible approach, I'd personally rather see work go into improving mlox than starting up a new project with only 50% interest.

However, I haven't heard much in the way of reasons for voting yes. If you're voting yes due to dissatisfaction with mlox, then I think it's a good idea to bring the problems you have with it up. I suspect that a few yes voters do so because they'd like to see an alternative that might do some things better, or think that a 'competitor' would drive an effort to improve both programs. However, in the event that a BOSS for Morrowind doesn't get set up, if you don't raise your reasons for wanting an alternative to mlox, then they may never get addressed.

Anyway, keep voting people, the more the merrier! (and I need a bigger sample size)

If john.moonsugar is reading this, I'd also like to hear your opinion on a BOSS for Morrowind, since you're apparently in charge of mlox.

I voted no because I share the same opinion like all the other posters. mlox has a better method of mod sorting. Also it's possible to create custom rules, unlike BOSS.

If you really like to improve mod ordering, I am sure john.moonsugar will appreciate some help.

Well, I'm all for it, actually, if it's something you want to work on and support. I think users benefit when they have a choice. Personally, I disagree with the sentiment that it would fracture the user base, as users tend to gravitate towards tools that suit them, and if mlox does not suit someone, maybe BOSS for MW would. The mlox license if very liberal, so if you want to use any part of it, including the rule-base, you are welcome to do so. We could probably extract something from the current rule-base that might at least get you started, although it would not be too much.

That said, I may be wrong, but ordering for plugins in MW is not as important as it is in Oblivion. I found that BOSS cleared up a pretty unstable Oblivion game for me. In Morrowind, it's not so much about stability as it is about making sure the overriding plugin gives the desired behavior. And that's why I chose the partial order sorting with conflict advice method that mlox uses.

I think what john.moonsugar have said (imo) does make sense to me, because I can finally have full benefit most of Morrowind mods with an alternative rather than I use http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1083121-relz-mlox-a-tool-for-anolyzing-and-sorting-your-load-order/page__view__findpost__p__16202726. That report was always generated when I update the LO in mlox, which I've from the first time I use mlox and that went on for years just caused by an ASCII issue.

Finally, I got tried of this and started to redate the whole LO of installed mods in Wrye Mash.

When I first came across of BOSS I was a little conservative about it so I waited a year or two.
Earlier this year I found the BOSSgui which gave me an excuse to use it more frequently and I like it a lot especially the update feature to download the latest masterlist through BOSS.

More important now I can use BOSSgui without any stupid ASCII issue and that satisfy me a lot, but recently there was http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1106095-wrye-mash-stand-alone/ and hopefully I might could use mlox but nope it didn't.

I admit, I was a little upset when I first saw this thread, but after awhile I was thinking of my options and came to conclusion I didn't have much choice so why not I've nothing to lose. I didn't vote yet just because of my current situation.


@wrinklyninja: I didn't want to be rude or something and my apology if I offended you.

The thing is, I'm not proposing that 'we' set up a MW masterlist. I don't even own the game, so I wouldn't be any help. I'm just trying to decide whether anyone will do so, hence the 2nd poll question. If no-one is going to do it, then I might as well remove morrowind support from BOSS, because nobody currently on the BOSS team is interested in supporting morrowind to the point that they'll actually do work on it. I thought that the lack of people working on a MW masterlist might just be due to the community not really knowing about it, hence a purpose of this thread is to gauge whether it was simply a lack of awareness, or that nobody is bothered enough to do so.

If people are interested in BOSS for MW, then they've got to know that it's up to the MW community to set up it's own system of contributors much like how the FO3 guys did. All the interest in using BOSS for MW wouldn't mean a thing if nobody in the community actually got around to setting up a group to work on it. Basically, I'm the guy that says "hey guys, have you heard of this thing called BOSS?", and the community either answers "no/yes, but we're not really interested in doing something like that for our game" or "(to me) no/yes. (to rest of community) Hey guys, lets get working on support for our own game."

Thanks for the offer of using mlox's rules, but that'd be best directed to a future BOSS MW group, if the community wants to set one up. Your second paragraph is interesting though, as someone completely ignorant of MW and its modding, I didn't realise LO wasn't so important. Perhaps there isn't really such a need for BOSS, and it sounds like what mlox does is at the end of the day more suited for MW.



Nothing offending there. People can say whatever they want, it is opinions I'm after, after all. If 200 people are refraining from voting/posting because all they've got is 'BOSS sux", then I'd rather they came out and said it, because I'm just trying to get an accurate idea of the level of interest MW modders and co. have in getting a BOSS MW support group going.

@ All: C'mon people, surely there's been more than 21 members on this board in the last day? Remember: bigger sample size = more accurate conclusions drawn. You wouldn't want me to get the wrong idea about you, would you?

Traffic on this forum really is quite light these days.

I'm afraid he is right about that, because I think most people here is little http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1068986-wrye-mash-thread-5/page__view__findpost__p__15713774 about how the development of Wrye Mash is almost forgotten and here can a thread page take months to be filled up.


Earlier today I got an idea of how this could be achieved, but first should the name be altered from BOSS to MOSS (Morrowind Order Sorting Software/System) and I guess that's the reason why not many people cast their votes on this poll among other reasons.

Offer MOSSgui (former BOSSgui) to the Morrowind community as a replacement for mlox (sorry john), which has bugging me for years now and BOSSgui doesn't do that.
The BOSSgui has one advantage over mlox is of course the online update function and I know people has asked about this in the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1083121-relz-mlox-a-tool-for-anolyzing-and-sorting-your-load-order/page__view__findpost__p__15844627 about an update feature.

Import/Convert the rule-base for the MOSSgui, Wrye Mash/Wrye Mash Stand Alone and hopefully can WM/WMSA have a functionally LO utility.
That could be a satisfaction for the most people to accept this kind of solution, but of course people can still use mlox if they wanted to. I know there is a lot of work to be done.

I'm eager and can't wait to see what Melchor has come up with in Wrye Mash Stand Alone.


@OP: I suggest that a little rephrase of the poll took place.

"Would you use another LO utility if there was one avilable instead of mlox?" Option - Yes or No "Which one would you use?" Option - mlox / MOSSgui / Wrye Mash / Wrye Mash Stand Alone 

I think this option may reflect the reactions of most people here. Discuss people.

I don't know about a name change - while it would certainly clear up a bit of confusion and make more sense, it would have to be discussed with the other admins. BOSS/BOSS-F/proposed MOSS would all use the same code, so the only difference would be renaming the executable and bits of the readme, I think.

As for BOSS GUI, that's done by someone outside of the BOSS team, and I'm not sure how the updater functions - it doesn't get the masterlist from Google Code, but a private server, so you only get an update if the server has the latest file. Since I don't know how the server is set up to get the masterlist, I can't vouch for it always being up to date. However, I recently added an update parameter to the next version of BOSS, so you can update the masterlist by running "BOSS -u" through a shortcut or command prompt.

I'm not about to add a GUI to BOSS, since IMHO it functions best simply, and the only benefit of a GUI would be a button for updating, which is easily achieved via a shortcut. Sure, you could add the BOMM features to BOSS, but it's not something I use or would like to use, so I don't see myself doing so.

If you're talking about integrating MOSS into WMSA/WM, then I think that a better idea would be to have a native solution in WMSA/WM, perhaps using the masterlist idea, rather than having a distinct MOSS that is integrated.

As for changing the poll, I don't think that would do address the point, since WM, BOSS and mlox all seem to cover slightly different things. WM lets you sort mods manually, among lots of other things. BOSS sorts mods to minimise incompatibilities and bugs automatically, whereas mlox seems to sort mods according to conflicts, and what you want to override.

Going by my observations and the comments on this thread, it seems that there isn't really such a need for BOSS in MW, since it's less important to have a 'proper' load order, as a wrong order is less likely to break things, it seems. IMO, it looks like mlox is just far more suitable for the game in that it caters for that regard - since there's not really a 'proper' load order, but just what you want to override others, it lets you choose. :shrug:

I'll keep this thread going for another day or so, see if the situation changes.

More choices for Morrowind could never be a bad thing. If it's work you'll enjoy doing, go for it!


That said, the moment I first used mlox, I knew that we two would be together for a very long time :hugs: . It would take something major for me to switch away from mlox.

I think there is a little misunderstanding here, because I didn't mean to integrating MOSS into that instead it was actually the base-rule from mlox to the WM/WMSA and not MOSS.

This is pretty much my reasoning for voting as well. Also in all the years I've had and played MW I've never had a 10th of the same amount of issues as I have had with playing OB either.

i have boss that i use for oblivion and i also use mlox for morrowind. i suppose for those who play oblivon more and are familuar with how boss works would probably like something they are used to . though i would more then likely stick with mlox i dont really have any problems with load order though i do like getting the extra comments that inform me when a patch is available or a newer more up to date version is out and possible conflicts with other mods.