Apotheosis caused the Dragon Break. And Mannimarco was associated with a Tower, but it was Numidium.

Apotheosis becuase of......

I feel we're going in circles here, paws.

And THANK YOU, for understanding what I was on about.

That would be equivalent to blaming the birds for the murders of JFK and Martin Luther King because their dung provided the chemicals that allowed for the invention of gun powder.

A Dragon Broke is caused by the full presence of a gods, be it the Aedra who walked Mundus in the Dawn Era or the newly manteled Tribunal.





He used the power of the Mantella, the replacement heart/stone of the Numidium to join the ranks of the gods. Yes.

I take it this is what you mean by power-house? A stone however isn't the conductor of magicka, but the focal point of a tower. It's the Towers that collects the energy. A good example would be those Daedric Towers in Oblivion which focus the fire (magicka) onto the towers' Stone.



CHIM and the Enantiomorph aren't the same thing. Chim is a realization about the universe, while the Enantiomorph is a mythical structure, a relation between two people. By imitating this structure Tiber Septim usurped Shezzars position as Talos. It's one of the walking ways to reach Heaven described in the sermons. The understanding of Chim comes from another walking way, though Vivec does note that Tiber Septim was a Master like him.

You are correct about this being a different kind of divinity though. Manimacro merely becomes powerful enough to put himself into the divine ranks and doesn't transcend them.



There is no argument that Akuhlakhan was a Tower, it is even named in the Intercept, Walk-Brass. However the intercept defines towers as mythical imitations of the Adamantine Tower by the various tribes of Aldmer. It's the imitation that makes something a tower, not merely that there is a powerful object that can change the world.

As such neither Manimacro or the Staff of Chaos are towers. Allot of things also exhibit tower-like behavior, ordinary mortals channel magicka and focus it to change the world around them, this however doesn't make them towers.



Also Manimarco, King of Worms, and God of Worms aren't different entities. They're different names for one and the same person. Why do you insist that they aren't?




As you can see I've got a hard time following you. What you think is common knowledge perhaps isn't quite so common.

Yes, I know these things. But it's not the same thing, at all. I have thought that Keening and Sunder were made for the sole intent and purpose of reconstruction. The Tonal Architecture is being remade, however, rearranged. So in likeness, it's the same to say that Keening and Sunder are the fingers that pulled the triggers of the assassinations of JFK and MLK. You know?



Right but why is it, then, that when a stone goes bye-bye, a tower becomes useless? Because the stone IS the power-house. It's the same thing as saying it's the focal point of a tower. The stones are the Mythopoeic binds. Which is to say, they are the batteries. The Towers use the energy to work. That's my understanding of them. That's why it's so important to note that when the I breaks, the Tower breaks, all ends, becuase the stone of the universe is going to be useless, thus making the I useless. I don't know if there is a 'stone to the universal Tower' though, so that could be wrong. That's what I got out of Landfall any way. And I know, you're going to say 'The I isn't a literal Tower.' But it is. I think that that's what makes CHIM, well, CHIM. You bound outside the Tower, bypass Dreamsleeve, and go out of AE. It's just the realization and sustainability that you need.



I know that, as well. But I was saying that they're doing a similar thing. One leads you to the top of the I, while the other leaps you OVER the I.



That is interesting, becuase I remember reading that the walking tree-city of Valenwood was a Tower. It doesn't resemble Adamantine at all. In fact, the only things I see that could resemble that are the towers in Summerset Isles. That's speculation, of course, becuase I don't know what Adamatine or the towers of Summerset look like. I'd assume jagged, and shiny.



That is true, that Magicka can shape the world. But I'm meaning on a more cosmic scale. I don't see Cyrodiil turning into a giant forest just becuase some mage casts a fire spell. But see how Vvardenfell changed to accompany the Heart of Lorkhan? How the crater of Red Mountain was formed, how the ash and blight surround it? Lorkhan's skin (in a sense, if you believe the Sixth House) is now divinely floating around his heart. Cyrodiil? The center of the world. White-Gold is made on a platform. Maybe it's just coincidence, but I see it as the fact that the Towers change things, the places they are in are made especially for them. Also, I thought Manimarco was the mortal, King of Worms was the Necromancer, and God of Worms was the god, once the Necromancer learned how to jump onto the top of I. I might be wrong, though.

Sorry if it's not common knowledge. Maybe I'm just wrong about it all. Maybe I thought it was common knowledge only becuase I found myself knowing it, and maybe I only know it becuase it's wrong, yet I think it's right.

The http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=72791987&pageid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=Tetragrammaton?

Tetragrammaton is the Name of God, in certian jewish traditions.

It's supposed to be unproununciable.

I met a jewish guy on my Lion's Club exhange in Japan, and he got quite embarassed when I said "Jeh-ovah" to him.

So, it is pronunciable.

Actually, using the more commonly used vowels with those particular consonants, the word more closely resembles "EE-Yah Hoh Vay", or "Ee Yah Hoo Wayh" From this transliteration comes several other transliterations, when transcribed into different languages, such as latin "Jehova" and modern yiddish "Yahweh"

However, this little tidbit will likely attract Dogs body like flies to a corpse, so lets not go further.

Tetragrammaton has no vowels, but the Hebrew method includes the forbidden "uhh" throat sound. Yeah, it's strange interesting.



Lol, yes.

Enantiomorph

Rebel+King+Female Principle+Witness

2^2 = 4 The Tetragrammaton, four letters, summarizes the catalyst of the transition between the interplay to the creation of Mundus. There is more then one correct answer.

Still waiting for you guys to fit the Gloden Section into this.

I really don't see what you're getting at. They're just inanimate objects, tools used by people. The tools don't ever have any intentions at all.

What do you mean by the Tonal Architecture is being remade? It doesn't make sense because Tonal Architecture is a craft, much like a land-scape architect, it's not something that can be remade.

Just a little lost here.



A stone can be replaced, look at the Numidium for example, the Heart of Lorkhan was replaced by the Mantella. Though I can understand how it might appear as if the Heart of Lorkhan and the Mantella powered the Anumidium, the intercept indicate though that this isn't the case (atleast not with any towers aside from perhaps the Numidium).

And yes I'm gonna say they are different towers.

They really are different concepts and shouldn't be combined.

"I don't know if there is a 'stone to the universal Tower"

It's an interesting qeustion though. There is some stuff in the Sermons about Nirn being the hurling disk, the vessel that will transcend the Aurbis.



Valenstini, the walking tree, is Green-Sap. The Bosmer are called People-of-the-Sap occasionally. Green-Sap is also occasionally confused with the tower of the Argonians though, but the Argonians couldn't have build green sap because only Mer were into building towers.



Towers change the world alright, you didn't read that wrong but they're all also physical structures. Mountains, Towers, Tree's. Not actual people like Manimacro.

Manimacro is the real name for the King of Worms, which is what people called him in Daggerfall because he was an influential Necromancer. When he ascended he became known as the God of Worms and his followers call his apperances in the sky, his god plane(t) the Necromancers moon or the Renevant.



I get the impression you're trying to say something that isn't wrong but you can't seem to find the right words or explanation. So I'm gonna have a shot in the dark.

Remember those Oblivion towers, and the pocket realms that disappear when their stone is removed? Remember how the same happened to Paradise when Mankar was removed? In a sense it can be said that Mankar was the Stone of his Paradise-Tower.

So like wise you might say the same about Manimacro being the stone of the Necromancers moon, his god plane(t) that orbits Arkay. Is that what you're getting at?

edit:



You were saying that all along. I guess I owe you an apology.

Well it is my thought that when you use Sunder on the heart, you're 'tenderizing' the base of the architecture, like you use a meat tenderizer for chops and such. It makes the mythopoeic chains able to be reformed. So after you use Sunder, you use Keening and that is like a whisk, it scrambles everything around and reshapes it all. I'd quote from something here, but TIL is down right now. :shifty:



True...and was it not the Imperial Battlemage, The Underking, (and was he not also directly at Red Mountain when the Tribunal used the Heart to become gods as well?), who's soul was the thing powering the Mantella? But maybe it wasn't really a stone. Maybe it was more like a back-up battery. It worked, but was only going to work for so long.



*Throws arms up into the air.* Odelay!



Alright, I'll give you that. Just food for thought though.



:nod: I also get the idea from this:

The Sun shall be eaten by lions, which cannot be found yet in Veloth.
...
I am Vehk, your protector and the protector of Red Mountain until the end of days, which are numbered 3333.
...
'The fire is mine: let it consume thee,
And make a secret door
At the altar of Padhome,
In the House of Boet-hi-Ah
Where we become safe
And looked after.'

Which is supported (at least, to me) by the passage at the end of that sermon:

The secret to doom is within this Sermon.

Thought it may be referring to the Dwemer's own doom, I find that passage to mean something doom-like. Fire of the gods, and finding the secret door may be the secret to getting over I, becuase the altar of Padhome is obviously the center of the universe, with makes me think of the I, and the House of Boethiah is just screaming of a type of doom. He repeats this litany a few times throughout the sermons, and it seem to put the listener into a transcending sense. It just makes sense to me that maybe MAGNUS is the stone. Just need to find out who (or what) the lions are.



So you're thinking that there is no possibility that there could be Tower-like abilities in the Staff of Chaos? I just find it all to convenient that it makes up a disc, as pertained to in sermon 17.

At the end of the battle, the Hortator found that he had gathered seven more spokes. He attempted to attach them and form a staff but Vivec would not let him, saying, 'It is not the time for that.'

Nerevar said, 'Where did I find these?'

Vivec said that they had collected them from around the world, though some had come invisibly. 'I am the wheel,' he said, and took that shape. Before the emptiness at the center could live too long, Nerevar put in the spokes.

There is a fear of that void within the circle.



Ah, yeah, ok, so that three stages theory was wrong, but may still work for his transcendence.



Yes! Without it, the ability for Necromatic magick would not be supplied to Nirn, right? So it's technically God of Worms who sustains that force, which is why he is called just that, the God of Worms.



No need, it's all good. All it takes is a little brainstorming together and we can get far.

For the record, I think that "secret to doom" is Love, or rather an absence of that. "Know Love to avoid the Landfall."

Necromancy was there before Manimacro, otherwise Manimacro wouldn't have been a mortal Necromancer for so long. Though he probebly gets his energy as a god from being the antagonist to Arkay. Something about how acting out the struggle between the Light and the Dark gives thing energy is described in the Light and the Dark.



Ah no. The Staff of Chaos was indestructible because it was made of the essential parts of the world. Just as the spokes representing the parts the Aedra gave to the world are essential. You can connect them like a wheel or like a staff but it remains a symbol for the world, not the universal self.



It was "To confound his captors, he channeled his essence into love, an emotion the Dwemer knew nothing about", simplest reference I can think of comes from the love letter "Know Love to avoid landfall" though the scripture of Love sermon 35 also goes into it. Know that ANU and his double, never happened. Know that one is the other, which goes back to Chim.



It's called the mythoepoeic lattice actually.

But still, not everything that changes the world can be considered a Tower. Sunder and Keening are just manipulators, for the enchantments on the Heart. These enchantments on the stone of Red Tower and Walkbrass would change the world by directing how the Stone would focus the Towers energy on the world but the tools are just being tools there.

I'm afraid that's an irrational number. Nothing sensible to be said about those.

Then it is of Padomay = Chaos - yet it is the foundation of sort of order combining both = Lorkhan

If there is no Golden Section than none of this adds up - or subtracts.

oops -tonal architecture All materails have a level of vibration within them - at certain the lower levels that is part of their tonal architecture - at the higher levels that is light

Well, yes, that makes sense but I 'd guess that since he mantled, it's now in his control. I'd also like to suggest that Arkay really isn't the enemy, more like the governing prospect. In light of what Arkay the Enemy hints at, it's more like Arkay is needed for the circle to be complete. Propaganda spread by him so they give him all the credit, while Akray is indeed in need of some.



But why, then, is it even hinted at that it can be used to form a wheel? Like I said, you find each piece in a very important place, they seem to be the hot spots for mythopoeic activity. And then it being made from the essential parts of the world just make it even more valuable, more of a catalyst. Perhaps not the universal self, at any rate, but if it can deter into another pocket-realm, it's got to be worth more than just a pretty staff to look at.



THAT makes sense. Alright, I can see where we can go with that.



Interesting.



But I never called them Towers, I called them conductors. Like Towers, but more indirectly being used to svck the energy from the stones. And they can change the enchantments that change the world, and so that too makes them catalysts. They're indirectly reshaping the enchantments that reshape the world once reshaped. Hence we get the Oblivion crisis, and hence we get the total change in terms of geographic freaking renovation when the Tribunal use the Heart to ascend.

I haven't followed Prowler's and Nomad's argument very closely, but I do like the idea that, beyond the tower imitations, there are also secondary imitations, the imitations of imitations, so to speak. Oblivion Towers would be secondary imitations, using the principle of tower-and-stone to create pocket dimensions from which to stage the invasion. And though I'm not sure how to fit the Mysterium Xarxes into this, but the object that is both the key, and the world to which the key leads, at the same time, is a concept that could also be applied to the Staff of Chaos. Tharn literally locked the Emperor up and threw away the key!

fractals?

The Painting from the quest a Brush with Dead and Orb of Vaermina also seems to act in a similair fashion.



You're thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-similarity. It is a typical property of fractals. Though what Tarvok described is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop.

[/wiki]

Your strange loop is fascinating - however I also considered that each layer of fractals depends from the previous at an angle. But that fractals may not be the correct answer as each layer is identicle to the last. The reason I settled on fractals is that it seemed that there was a definite progression in size from a God to a Tower to a staff.

Is there a mathematical formula that combines both?

Sure. I could devise quite a few. However, computers tend to crash when fed strange loops.

I know, I created a program in my quickbasic class that accidentally made use of a strange loop. It would function Quite Well, up until the infinite recursions consumed all available memory, resulting in a system hang.

Strange Loops are commonly used in Logic Bombs.


Here is an example of an infinite recursion simplified strange loop structure.

DECLARE SUB StrangeLoopDo Until LoopExitCond=1Call StrangeLoop(LoopExitCond)Loop'SUB StrangeLoop(LoopExitCond)If LoopExitCond!=1Call StrangeLoopEndIfEndSub StrangeLoop

Dude, I totally got like...SO lost.

Lol at that mod edit.

If anyone tried that, they'd need to just cut off their hands.