When we talked about immersion in Skyrim, we always think in terms of graphics, rules of the game (in other words gameplay), combat system... but I can tell you, no matter how hard we try, the immersion won't be as good as in reading a good old fantasy book. Why? because books use words, and words give us room for imagination.

For example, the book says: you walk up to an old man in his 50's. his thin body was covered merely by a few pieces of rag. Sorrow and fear can be felt from his eyes, yet his warm smile reminds you of hope. While looking at you, he was busy catching lice beneath his clothes, and the itchiness made him constantly scratch his body, leaving many rashes and ulcers.

Now, how are you going to represent this thing to the player using modern day gaming technology? We only have a generic body mesh, some pixelated texture, and a few necessary animations for each NPC, so there's no way we can convey the same amount of information using graphics alone.

Maybe, we can have a "observe" button in the game, and when used on objects it displays some kind of description of the object? I know it's primitive and might sound stupid, but as far as I know, no other games have attempted this. Maybe it'll have a positive effect over all

Whilst I agree 100% with you, I'm afraid none of this type of narrative will be used in 'modern day gaming'. Is it because it doesn't fit? Of course not! It's because most gamers would rather get a picture than read text, unfortunately.

I dunno, I feel as though if you want immersion and imagination on that level, you'd be better suited playing D&D. The devs spent a lot of time crafting a game world for us, and we're generally only limited to the constraints of the world they've created. To want anything more than that out of the game is really asking for a lot.

I do think the observe button is pretty cool, though.

I do agree that theres nothing like losing yourself in a great book full of detail, but think of this as being able to use your imagination to put a story behind each character.

I know there's constraints, but that doesn't mean they can't get around it in some way. like I said, having a descriptive observation feature would get the game closer to the D&D level of immersion. you can choose to use the button or not to use the button if you dn't wanna read

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say (I'm a bit addled right now, so it came out sounding kind of stupid.)
The devs and artists crafted a world for us to lose ourselves in, and pretty much made it a sandbox so they don't dictate how we play. What fun would it be if they dictated how you see the world, too? I like the idea of an observe button, and I'm not really opposed to it, but I'd really rather be able to see the world as I want to, and apply my own imagination to things.

of course you can come up with your own imagination, but there needs to be some kind of description to guide you, otherwise why wouldn't the book simply say: you come up to a shabby old man

This is one of the few things that I think Arena did better than Daggerfall, and of course every other game in the series.

Arena Mage's guild
"The white dust in the Mage's guild is not as deep as the snow outside, but it is so omnipresent that all the arcane relics within seem to be covered in a thin Shroud. It is an almost soundless chamber, with only an occasional sigh from the pot of boiling liquid on the fire. Slowly warmth creeps back into your chilled body."

Inns
"Mulled wine is the featured drink today in the (Insert Inn name here). You shake the snow from your shoulders and head, and think nothing could sound better."

"Its a cold spring night outside, but you have no need to seek out the fireplace on entering the (Insert Inn Name here). The tobacco smoke and smell of now bread trickles out the open windows."

"The (Insert Inn Name here) is like a beacon in the cool spring night, full of torch light, clinking glasses, and the aromas of the Kitchen."

Cities
"You have arrived in the City-State of Elinhir in Hammerfell Province. The date is Turdas, 3rd of First Seed in the year of 3E 389. It took 60 days to reach your goal. Thou art welcome in Elinhir, guardian of the West. Many name this home. Be cautious, lest ye draw their wrath upon thy heads..."

"You have arrived in the City State of Eldenroot in Valenwood Province. The date is Loredas, 12th of First Seed in the year 3E 391. It took 5 days to reach your goal. You enter Eldenroot, Wood Elvin city near the center of Valenwood. The elves here seem friendly and you are hailed in welcome. You overhear that the city's commerce is doing well."

Palaces
"Its hard to believe that anyone can think of politics on such a day, but the people are lining up to be heard by Queen Vlandra while outside newly bloomed flowers perfume the air."

"Inside the Audience chamber of Vlandra, Queen of Eldenroot, the new sprouts of spring die young and the perfume of fresh blossom turns to a sickly stench. Vlandra is rumored to have angered the city state Oracle who placed upon the queen a curse of poor health. The political change has been very noticeable in such a city-state where tradition is of highest importance..."


BRING THESE BACK!!!!!!

Well, as long as such descriptions don't contradict the graphics, but supplement them... For example, there were books telling about the adventures of certain NPCs - does that qualify as immersion using words?

yea they should... TES series has moved away from the role play of Arena and towards the Action RPG of oblivion. seriously, when I play oblivion I don't feel like I'm role playing but simply doing quests and get better equipment... isn't that just something along the line of Diablo?

I agree that books are far more immersive and offer much more potential for imagination but I have every faith in Bethesda that they'll create a vibrant world that I'll get svcked into and enjoy thoroughly...

I remember in Fallout NV when you treat a patient, a dialogue box pops up and describes the patient's condition and what you can do to help him. even though all you did was passing a medicine skill check, but the dialogue box described all the medical procedures you did for the patient. I think that's a nice come-back to good old RPG elements. Skyrim should learn from that.

I was able to feel the roleplay of Oblivion, though this was mostly through mods and such. Oblivion roleplay was more about how you did things. It is a highly immersive world, even if you could never catch that full level of immersion that you could in Arena just by reading the texts of when you enter buildings and such. But yeah, it did sort of loose a lot along the way. And I feel like its not too late to get that back while still staying fresh and new for mainstream gamers.

It worked really well in Planescape Torment, but I don't think it would really work in Skyrim.

I think it'll work. whenever your mouse cursor is over an object that's descriptive, it changes shape to indicate there's description for it, and then you can press a button to bring up the dialogue box. Even though it's 3D you can still observe small things while the environment is set using graphics.

For instance, in a paper and pencil RPG, when you enter a room there's description of the room, its layout and major objects. and then there's detailed description for smaller objects too. So, in a 3D game, the description of the room is done using graphics, and small objects can be described further in detail using words.

and if you want, when the cursor is not hovering on an object with description, you can still press observation key, and it'll give you a description of the room.

I um, actually don't need a text based descrtiption to help me develop details with my mind. Don't get me wrong, I think that text descriptions were awesome in their time, and it is one of the reasons that Arena was so great, but the text system was mostly there to help compensate for the poor graphical capabilities of the game. Arena was designed to be an immersive, deep, memorable game, and that ideal was unachievable without text augmentation to the graphics.

I really wouldn't mind it, if it were optional, but it kind of seems more limiting than a rendered model in the first place. Text limits my internal dialogue itself, forces my imagination into a pre-fabricated model. This I don't like with todays graphics.

Instead of a window poping up saying, "The warm candle-light casts comforting tones of yellow on the scrubbed wooden bar that stands prominently in the large room of the inn, easing your tired body as you brush snow off of your shoulders," why not have your character walk into the inn, brush off the snow (Dynamic Snow people, keep your fingers crossed for player interaction), sit down and buy a pint? While I make my character do all of this, I can imagine in all the little details like the smell of mead in the air, etc.

Skyrim should take advantage of this

Would be nice to complete this game with a option of not killing anyone.

Agreed.

Surely you jest. Have you seen the response when someone suggests that any percentage, however small, of the NPCs not be voiced? People can't be bothered to read any more, and to suggest they do so in these forums is akin to deliberately inciting a riot.

It's a great idea, don't get me wrong...if it had come along 10 years earlier when the fanbase hadn't shifted so drastically in a "the game must do it all for me, period" direction. But recall the complaints about Morrowind combat- one of the loudest gripes isn't about the combat itself, but that it's not explicitly animated in when you miss.



:blink: Off-topic much? The pacifism thread is http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1153516-the-oath-of-peace/, this is about in-game text use.

well, that's sad. people don't read any more is not their fault though. they don't read because they have other (easier) ways to get information.