I have been playing Morrowind for the first time and enjoying it a lot except for the leveling system:

While I have searched for leveling mods like this, I just don't see one yet in Morrowind/Oblivion/Fallout3. I guess in real life, you normally receive training first (business, military, golf, etc), then you go out and use the training you have received to build upon what you have learned. Once you get enough experience, you become certified then you move on to the next cycle of training/experience/certification.

Seems like in Morrrowind, Oblivion and Fallout3, its backwards unless I am not looking at it properly. Wouldn't you go to a teacher/master in the field that you want to develop, learn from the teacher, apply what you have learned and then after a while you get certified based upon your training and experience. In the Bethesda Big 3, it seems like you have to experience things first then you get to level up.

In golf, I tried to teach and learn it myself and I have so many bad habits no trainer or golf pro can correct the bad habits that I now have - basically I learned the wrong way by experience alone. I would have been much better off if I had gone to the golf pro first to learn the skills the right way then go out and apply what I learned until I "mastered" it myself....then I am ready for more training because golf is a never ending learning experience.

So I think I would like the Big 3 games more if I could go to a trainer first (pay them money, like in RL) and get trained to increase the skill I am looking to master, then go out and get experience in that skill then go back to the trainer for the skill evaluation. It would be like getting 1 skill point for paid training, up to skill 1-3 points for experience (depends upon how much time you want to work on that particular skill) and then 1 skill point for paid certification by going back to the master for certification or additional training. So you could get between a minimum of 3 sill points (2 skills are paid for and provides for a good reason to spend your money) and this system would provide for a maximum of 5 skill points before you are able to increase the attribute governing the skill you just worked on.

Just my initial thoughts on leveling - I just dont know how practical it would be in game play. Maybe instead of 5 skill points you go to 10. I am not sure if this was discussed before or if there is a leveling mod that does exactly this.

Lol there are many skills you do not need to get someone to show you.

I learned how to cook myself, without help. Sure, my eggs were carbonized the 1st time, but now they are delicious. My friend for example learned how to play guitar all by himself.

In other words, I think that Morrowind's leveling system is the closest to real life you can get, well at least to me it would ruin it if it would go any deeper that way, from my point of stand, Morrowind has the best leveling system among any rpg out there (despite some a bit badly set values which causes me to still be able to mess up enchanting with skill on 200 and few buffs on the skill).

I must be missing something about histroy and how cavemen and such learned from proffesionals as how to hunt and fish and gather and become certified. Caveman College must have been quite popular back in the day.

Actually, you learn most of the stuff you need for a job on the job in the real world, at least with engineering; the college background is just that, background for talking about stuff theoretically.(of course this is only part true with programmers etc, but my point still stands) All this stuff about getting certified and such is all new. Throughout most of history, people didnt need that, they simply went out and learned on the job through experience. Of course there were trainers and such, but thats more along the lines of the finer details of something, but the knowledge has to start somewhere.

This was posted by fearrabbit on the oblivion side of things - more what I was looking for more involvement with needing trainers to unlock levels - plus CDM_ posted a comment that it needs to stay on the fun side of things too:

FearRabbit:

Maybe a system where skill improvement is divided into several steps would be a solution. What I mean is that you can only train your skills yourself in a skill up to a certain point; at that point, you'd have to seek a trainer who'd teach you the basics of the next level of mastery. An obvious choice would be the mastery levels that already exist - Novice, Apprentice, Journeyman, Expert, Master.

Example: You have a skill at 20. You can train that skill yourself up to 24, but not any further - in order to gain Apprentice level, you have to get trained by a trainer. Once you have the skill at 25, you can raise it up to 49 again, and so forth.

Personally, I'd like to try out such a system. It would make trainers more important again, and in order to become the Master of a skill, you would actually need to find a Master trainer.

One thing the op is spot on about is how you can learn terrible bad habits with no one to supervise you. You may improve overall, but it becomes very hard to unlearn the bad habit. Like my boxing coach used to say, you have to try and forget everything.

Well that's certainly the formal way and one way to learn.

Most of the things I have learned involve a less formal situation:-
Get thrown into deep end. Ask around. Get told no one has the time, get told the _wrong_ info by someone who doesn't actually know, find out for myself by researching, become accounted the resident expert. Repeat.

In the real world, most skills are learned and improved either by training (not necessarily formal, could be Dad teaching kid to bait a hook) or by making mistakes. This last is what Morrowind and other RPGs get exactly backwards. The greatest progress toward skill improvement (other than training) should come when the player tries to use a skill and fails--but Morrowind gives nothing for that. (Acrobatics may be an exception; I think you do get skill points for falling and taking damage.) Trivial success, however, is rewarded as often as the player is willing to achieve it. Make a one-point Fireball spell with zero chance of failure, cast it enough times, and your Destruction skill will rise as high as the game allows. In the real world, you don't become a concert pianist by playing Chopsticks over and over, no matter how many times you do it.

Actually this is a common mistake. (grin).
I learned how to build a firewall from reading a few articles, making a small number of mistakes and making a lot of successes. Mistakes only teach if you realize what you did wrong. Equally, successes only teach if you learn what you did right.

The point is, learning is complex. No rpg is going to accurately model it, and it probably wouldn't be very satisfying if it did. I'd advise not being too concerned.

I made a mod for personal use that does this. I added an xp gain on a failed skill, and lowered the increase on a successful skill use. It really slows down skill raising when your skills get high up, but I didn't like not getting xp on failed skills either. I could release it if there's interest, it hadn't occurred to me that anyone else might want it.

I would really love something like this...

Me too....would be willing to test it too...

But I think what most people are saying it that its got to be fun and the problem with the morrowind leveling system is you get into micromanagment. I don't want to go from 1 micromanagment system to the next. But I got to have some restrictions to my skill building. Sure one can learn from mistakes and such, but to get to the master level of say Tiger Woods (not sure if that is a good example) you have to take lessons as you learn through experience as well.

In my view we are talking about a "Tiger Woods" level as an avatar in Morrowind. I just dont think it is realistic to have just natural talent (starting skills) combined with just experience (OJT) to reach master avatar levels in skill development.

Well, it depens of the background of your character. There's not the same a trained soldier that an unexperienced mage schoolar

I'd like to take a stab at this one, too - even more if it works with Madd Leveler

The system in MW already works somewhat like the real world: you often don't have enough understanding of the skill to even know where to begin (skill = 5), so you go to a Trainer and buy a few levels of training to learn the basics. Then you venture out into the real world and apply the little bit that you learned, and figure out the rest by trial and error (plenty of the latter). For some skills, you've already gotten previous training or have some limited experience before the game starts, so they're already at 10-40, or possibly even higher if you began practicing them while you were young.

Another thing is that attributes should increase your ability to do something, they should be swapped round. Learning to swim well does not make you fast. But you can swim better if you are faster. And attributes shouldn't go up "when you reach the next level", they gradually increase. For example you don't go to the gym for months and then get stronger all of a sudden. On the other hand, skills can do that, sometimes things just "click". You might not even be able to do the same thing the very next day.
Oh and minor pet peeve: why the hell is acrobatics governed by agility? Sure "acrobatics" should be. But this isn't really it is it? It's jumping height, so it'd be strength based or maybe even speed. (plyometrics or speed strength)

Yeah, Acrobatics should be Strength based, I mean, Strength and Speed based anyway.

Faster you run when you finally jump, the farther you'll go. Simple Physics....conservation of momentum. Something Morrowind doesn't screw up all the time.

But yeah, Morrowind is really close to real life.
Sure it does make you question some things...but it's not bad.


FYI, you need an enchant of 800 and/or an Intelligence of 3000 to successfully enchant things.
You have like a -65% chance to enchant a Daedric Tower shield with a constant effect that uses all of it's points at 100 Intelligence and 100 Enchant.
Bethesda didn't want to make it easy.

My view has changed in that I am more interested in a lock out of going from one level - like novice to apprentice unless you start higher at chargen which I would call more natural ability if your beyond novice to start - where experience can only take you so far and balance that against fun/gameplay. And you would have to pay a trainer before you could increase your skill any further. To me there is nothing that you must do to go from novice to apprentice except experience - well who verifies that you are an apprentice?

It is really a much more simple concept that seems more RL in nature where you have to seek someone out more knowledgable than you to verify and allow you to continue onto the next level.

Yeah, but Morrowind doesn't have skill level tiers like Oblivion. There's no Master/Expert and what not. 30 skill in Morrowind is when you start hitting things a lot more. And 79-80 is when it starts slowing down in gaining XP from stabbing things.

Also, I hate to say it, but the first person to discover fire didn't have anyone to train him how to use it.
He had to train himself.
Surprisingly, not all jobs can be trained. Some of them have no choice but to be self-taught.

I agree that a quasi-real life way would be interesting for Morrowind, I'm all for new ways to do things in this game.

But uh, Morrowind's skill thingy actually does have some basis in real life.
Although, in real life, who do you go to to be declared a master swordsman, anyway?

Also, keep in mind, Jack of All Trades exist in real life too. A single skill can take awhile to learn, yes.
However, I'm not waiting for 15 years to pass in game to train my sword skill to the point where I can hold my own against anyone in the world though. Or however long it would be in Real Life.

I mean, nobody taught me how to kill people! Wait, I said that out loud...

Also, why would anyone think you actually learn more from failure than you do success? Sure it can help you to learn from your mistakes. But you also can't load from a save in real life.