» Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:14 am When I played Morrowind and Oblivion, I very much enjoyed having great freedom in how I could define my character via skills. I didn't have to limit my warrior to martial weaponry--I could have him deal with enemies by employing destruction magic too. This is just one of many examples. However, a disadvantage I noticed from this system is that 'class purity' is highly discouraged. A warrior foregoing magic entirely is at a great disadvantage in comparison to a warrior utilizing some magic. The former suffers a substantial net loss, as his only gain is marginal in comparison to what he could have gained putting the skill points into certain magic skills.
My idea for fixing this lack of balance is providing some incentives for going the pure class route. Now, it could be argued that taking a pure class route should be more difficult, and that it is a good test of self-discipline, and that providing incentives for it would negate those entirely. Oblivion's enemy scaling system, in my opinion, made it excessively cumbersome to take a pure class route once a sufficiently high level had been reached, which I think breaks those arguments, but then again, it has been recently announced that http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1156332-is-level-scaling-backnoooooooooooo/page__st__40__p__16933097#entry16933097. Even if it isn't as difficult to take a pure class route in Skyrim, I think it would still be beneficial to the game to add significant incentives for it. Those who prefer generalization (the large majority) don't lose out at all, as this playstyle is not disincentivized at all (other than losing out on the incentives for playing 'purely').
Here's a summary of my arguments.
1. In Morrowind and Oblivion, class purity was heavily disincentivized, while class generalization was highly incentivized. I'm presuming that the system in Skyrim will be similar enough to make this statement true for it as well.
2. To solve this, compelling incentives (e.g. special perks) should be provided for going the pure class route, so that there is some sort of reward for it. There is no need for a penalty to be inflicted upon generalization playstyles, though.
So what do you think? I've made a poll for this purpose, but I'm also hoping that people will introduce new arguments, information, etc. in replies.
My idea for fixing this lack of balance is providing some incentives for going the pure class route. Now, it could be argued that taking a pure class route should be more difficult, and that it is a good test of self-discipline, and that providing incentives for it would negate those entirely. Oblivion's enemy scaling system, in my opinion, made it excessively cumbersome to take a pure class route once a sufficiently high level had been reached, which I think breaks those arguments, but then again, it has been recently announced that http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1156332-is-level-scaling-backnoooooooooooo/page__st__40__p__16933097#entry16933097. Even if it isn't as difficult to take a pure class route in Skyrim, I think it would still be beneficial to the game to add significant incentives for it. Those who prefer generalization (the large majority) don't lose out at all, as this playstyle is not disincentivized at all (other than losing out on the incentives for playing 'purely').
Here's a summary of my arguments.
1. In Morrowind and Oblivion, class purity was heavily disincentivized, while class generalization was highly incentivized. I'm presuming that the system in Skyrim will be similar enough to make this statement true for it as well.
2. To solve this, compelling incentives (e.g. special perks) should be provided for going the pure class route, so that there is some sort of reward for it. There is no need for a penalty to be inflicted upon generalization playstyles, though.
So what do you think? I've made a poll for this purpose, but I'm also hoping that people will introduce new arguments, information, etc. in replies.
I agree with you. I ll meddle in from my RPG experience. best example i can thonk of is ROLEMASTER complex but slow because of the trive to try something approaching some plausibliness, if such term exist, but that would be extremely easy to implement in CRPG if we keep combat outside the equation, cause critical as they are implemented would kill you in no time, which is normal since the game seek group balance for adventure, and we are in SP settings.
So Skill aren t only to be there and have kids to complain that they are lost in the list of skills.
Skill are there to build your character and must be balanced so there is freedom for those who want to get hybrid, but also great reward for those who get "pure".
Each class has is basic setting and attributes, those basic skills are very cheap and the attributes enhance these skills in time to create sinergy and make you follow the class because it PAYS.
In between each class there are skills that doesn t really pertain to any class but come handy and will build your uniqueness as characters.
The freedom come, but as anything its a trade off, you can get where you want but those skills that are costyer than the basic in such a way that intermediate are a little costyer and another class skills are damn costly!!
Thats basicly what was in Arena and Daggerfall in a lesser way in Morrowind and in a pathetic way in Oblivion and you can bet as pathetic in Skyrim.
Basicly what can we learn from this, well TES is less and less RPG like and more and more a mere action game with roleplaying element. You can brag what you want, FPS and Skill tree arent anything near rpg like, HEXXEN and the like wasn t RPG and it was in a medieval setting, TES is slowly but inexorable getting there, the same way they massacred Fallout to a mere FPS, good on his own, but no more than a S.T.A.L.K.E.R game with another set of pixels. Those games contaim merely the fallout of the RPG essence if i can this peotic. And TES is already following the same path, bullet time anyone, this give me the creeps, was awesome in F.E.A.R franchise, but was overused. Seems Beth is awesomely out of idea. Dragons ? Overused, Bullet time ? Overused, Conan like grafics ? Overused, well maybe all those not that overused....
And Why ? (a bit of all)
Because there are fewer RPG gamers? Wrong because very few programers want to do it, not because its dificult, no in reality its easyer to do the RPG part than the visuall programation. But as new comers seems to have short attention span, or at least give this impression to the industry it is more rewarding to do piss poor GAMES and crank up the eyecandy.
There s another factor, a company more easely hire a GFX programer because a history maker and gameplay designer have less tangible results. And if you have a skill you have to make content in how to use it ingame, and that require someone thinking on the game, not someone doing pretty pictures, which by the way will be outdated for the PC market, because console, unfortunatly today, are some 3 to 4 years behind PC in tech. PC is experimenting with new technology while consoles are desesperatly trying to squeeze the last remnant of a dying tech.
And else:
How many thread asking how the pretty visuall will be, and how many thread asking how interesting the game will be have we seen ?
This tendency, althought was already in motion in the PC industry, went full blow when the industry filled the console market lacking interesting (of maybe newness)games, at least true sandboxes like Morrowind.
So sadly to the op i would say as the skill are dying so is the possibility of "class purity" gain any incentive, cause the incentive is created by a balance of skill quantity with attribute balance. And both are dying on the market as well as in TES franchise.
Although what i ve seen on the video "behind the scene" show awesome potential (more due to TES franchise history), nothing in the video show a some really genuine RPG element, just interfaces which demonstrate more enfasis in cool animation than for example cool crafting setting, or even a set of crafting skills where the more you craft the more you have success in crafting basic and higher settings independent of lvl or class.
We already know that there are 18 skills, all based on blarghtblivion, so crafting won t be handled as a skill.
IF not as a skill i pretty wonder how.
TES destiny if they continue the path they walk ?
OVERUSED because they are becoming a comon game without soul and without uniqueness. And the market lack uniqueness especially on the RPG market. Don t be mad at me. I ll wait but if i had to bet something, as some older player have said in another forum :
"I wouldn t be surprised if TES V is nothing more than a DRAGON AGE 2, that would be fun for the fan boy delusioned and sad for the TES and industry."
If you think i m bitter you ve seen nothing.
To answer the post above:
Pure class are those who use only focus:
Focus or archarchetipe are magic / combat / stheath.
Inside such you could easely unfold:
Magic:
Healer
combat mage
Necromancy
and a mage by "psionic" could be admited
Invoker
by combat:
Knight,
Archer,
Martial artist
Scout /ranger
And steath
Thief
Burglar
assassin
And so on.
And then come the hybrids, Barbarian, Warlock, battle mage, etc..
If only TES people could take a look at the 3 basic ROLEMASTER books and REMEMBER what a RPG really IS.
