construction set.

its a game mechanic, but i think in this case it is correct.

aw man, I am crazy, its just that someone else is crazy too

I've heard that Ocato is an Ayleid, probably on this Forum, but I never understood why. It seems to me that people that think he is an Aylied have no real evidence besides "His skin is a bit darker". It seems that people want him to be an Ayleid so they are grasping for anything that might explain this. As far as I'm concerned Ocato is an Altmer, although it would be an interesting story if he were Ayleid, what with leading the Council and all.

Nothing in the refugees however indicates that this was the case. At first appearance these are presentient fever dreams of a woman about to go in labor. There is nothing more to the refugees then this.

But anyway, you keep shifting your argument as in post #100 you agree that the woman was uttering prophetic words, while in post #116 you do not feel that she is portrayed as prophetically gifted. You also seem to be do nothing but ramble on about could-be-ifs and haranguing Lady N for not agreeing with these unsourced speculations.

Please do give me a reason why anybody should take you seriously.

because he agreed with me on Occato's skin color

From #100:


Are you going to play misquote too proweler or was that a mistake? I believe I said unless Kaalys is prescient (then she would be described as a seer or wise one) there has to be another force at work. And look there is the quote from my post 100 above! I guess I was actually consistent and therefore according to your logic you should take me seriously. and the other quotes in that post 100 are from The Refugees itself. So maybe you don't take The Refugees seriously?

But you know all this proweler. ... and you are admin on the very site where Lady N and your other pals were ranting on about all the people you according to the posts there all hate because they are your intellectual inferiors and arranging to 'have some fun' - read baiting them. Maybe if you had made some effort to reign in Lady N and all the trouble that your members have been launching from your site Lady N would not always need to call on you to back up her nastiness.

If I believed for one second that you were making honest mistakes I would not say these things - but then since you clearly have read the relevant thread on your site and indeed have posted there ... I am not surprised that you now stoop to making undeserved accusations. You make your nonsense elsewhere relevant by importing it here. It's not that I want to get involved in this - just that you and your pals keep ladling it on to the point where either peole oppose your assertions or (as so many talented people have done) leave this site. Personally I favor those who are willing to stand up for themselves. I'm just saddened that you are leading your members on such a tawdry and petty downward spiral at the expense of people who do not deserve such treatment.

Again I take this to be a thread that is about exploring possibilities in the Lore. Once material has been set into a book people are entitled to have their own theories on what it means and implies. The fact that you and Lady N stoop to misquoting me suggests that you actually agree with what I have said and have no proper way to deny it.

~~~~~

VickyD you know and I know , and the hundreds of people who will read this thread will know that in the pics shown Occato's skin colour and shading is radically differerent from the pic of the Altimer. It is possible that Alaisiagae's screen does not show this, but I doubt that.

I was wondering where you came up with the description of the colouring of the Ayeleids though?

aaand ...

Please remember that this bunch of flame-baiters, flamers, troll-baiters and trollers not only intimidate peole here, various of them also use more than one identity here when it suits them, according to their posts on their own forum. And as Lady N said here she believes she can say anything she wants on 'their' website. She has apparently does not care that what she says there on their open Forum is published material and subject to the laws of libel, Human Rights etc. People have a right to live free of Harrassment, a right to Respect and Dignity. Whether those who abuse are take them to court or not what they do is wrong in the eyes of society and the law.

Have you ever heard of the Emperor's Suit of Clothes - these guys are the tailors that made that 'fine' suit of clothes. :rolleyes:

Aah then we can wrap this up even faster because that seems to be the flaw in your whole argument.





This is where you go of the rails so to say. When a woman in her fever dreams is uttering prophetic words and you should not assume they are anything else. Unless you have additional information.



It is exactly this behavior, where you drag in peoples personal relations an opinions of you unrelated into the argument when people do not agree with you, that have marked you as rather eccentric. I do not usually mind these personality quirks in anybody, but you seem to bring this up every time somebody argues against you. That you do it after you've been asked to put it aside, that is just rather iconic.

Now if you actually wish to discuss the Imperial Libraries policies, you should do so at the Imperial Library or by PM. If you want to air what ever opinion you have, your are familiar with the appropriate thread. This does not seem to be the right place for any of these things.

Huh. I thought I answered this topic before. It's an old one.

Considering Ayleids as any sort of distinct cultural group ceased to exist, oh, about 3,000 something years ago, ruminating over whether Ocato is an Ayleid is about as fruitful as deciding Brian Blessed has Sumerian genes because of the luxuriance of his beard.

So either Ocato's mum or dad, who are from Firsthold, and probably nobility considering he represents that city on the council, did it with one of the reclusive, smelly wild elves from the mainland, which is unlikely. Or, Ayleid refugees 3,000 years ago from a wayward and thoroughly unorthodox kingdom were allowed into one of the most reclusive, mistrustful, ultra-orthodox and isolationist kingdoms ever, and Ocato is an Ayleid a few thousand times removed, which would in any case be irrelevant.

As far as prophetic pregnancy goes, what does that have to do with Ocato being an Ayleid again?

Next up on silly question hour; why Hitler was a visigoth.

This is exactly why people treat you the way they do, 1999, and it's probably the same reason no one has posted in that thread you created the other day. It's like Proweler said, every single time someone doesn't agree with you, you retreat back under your pathetic shell and scream "You all hate me, you flame me! Your site is evil!" And you'll make obvious little smartalic remarks, like you think you're all high-and-mighty. Just cut it out and maybe people will show you some respect every now and then. It goes in hand, you know what I mean? Scratch my back and I scratch yours? If you just stop acting like a know-it-all all the time we won't be putting you down. If someone makes a counterargument against something you say that doesn't automatically mean they're trying to flame you. Not everyone in the world is out to get you, 1999. :rolleyes:

Btw, please don't come back with how I have a personal vendetta against you or something crazy like that. In the end I'm actually trying to help you. It's your ego that will determine if you can find that message.[/rant]

Well you have cut out a lot there and what you have left and your comment still does not make sense either in terms of your earlier arguments, Lady N's arguments or mine.

But let me see if I have understood your argument here? I assume the last bit quoted here is actually your current argument? an dyour argument says that when a woman is uttering prophetic dreams in a fever you should not assume they are anything else?

Well they might be prophetic or they might not. It is my argument that a birth is a powerful event and not to be dismissed lightly - whatever point you are trying to make there I have no idea. My argument is also that if Kaalys were prophesying I would expect her to be named, titled, written about as a Prophetess in-game/in-book in some way because that sort of thing is important. So I do not think she is dreaming/prophesying in that sense. It's quite simple really. Honest.

If she is not actually prophesying then what is going on.

As I am sure you see the question remains what is she actually saying and why? And please remember that she repeats her words several times in several different but similar phrases. I have quoted all the instances of her various repetitions on the subject. You don't suppose the fact that she repeats what she says several times and in slightly different wording is significant? simple

We also know that there is an apparently independant witness underlining that she continued to state the same stuff AFTER Haymon was defeated.

And we know from the book that she fled after she gave birth - because a witnes was keeping an eye on her and saw her flee. That also might suggest that this was not simply an unconscious birthing prophesy - and that would change the question of her nature and actions from events during the birth only? The fact that her statements started during the birth is significant. Yet she is still nowhere referred to as prophet or equivalent. Therefore something more is at work. simple

If I were MK then I might well describe it in the cutely deprecating terms that Lady N does = basically Dagon Sticking his head up Kaalys tube - but I feel that's unecessary crudity because for the purposes of this discussion telepathy will suffice.

All know perfectly well that her words were about Mankar, Dagon and Oblivion - it's an Oblivion Book even according to your own website so what else did it refer to? Is it supposed to be about Pat the Postman bumped his knee?

It's a simple, considered, straight forward anolysis and insight that just makes obvious sense and that leads directly to obvious conclusions because the other ideas put here sorta ruled themselves out. :rolleyes:

Hows about re-reading this thread from a more detatched viewpoint?

She was already uttering prophetic words so there is no need to signify that she does indeed have presentience. There is no need to assume or expect anything more. That your whole argument actually hinges on this expectation doesn't make it very strong at all.

There are also plenty of examples in Lore where people have the abbility to see the future, but aren't a labeled as prophets or seers. Uriel Septim, Almelexia to name two. Or would you like to argue that Dagon also haunted their dreams? That would appear to be somewhat out of his realm to say the least.

Ok, now that we have all established what 1999 has done wrong in his time in TES forum, lets turn this around back on topic before a mod comes stopping in here and closes this due to flaming.

Wow this topic just goes on and on and on. Didn't 1999 originally say that Dagon had layed claim to in-utero Mankar Cameron? I dont see how this is so. No where in The Refugees does it say or hint at this. As for Kaalys being a prophetess, I dont know. Is it really important?

well you asked for an example of converse with or a laying claim to an unborn?

Here you go:



Please do not say I am suggesting Vivec and Mankar are comparable -

What I see is that even less than god-like beings can reach into a womb and 'impress their thought' - and that is onto a proto-semi-godlike being who is now claimed to be a godlike being and can be expected to have defenses.

Clearly Vivec has no problem envisioning such a thing.

Should be simple enough for Dagon to do something like that. He was after all starting a revolution in the form of Kaaly's baby - revolution being his sphere, nie?

thanking you

And VickD I don't think anyone has established that raggidman has done wrong in this forum thank you. What has actually been established is that whenever Lore is brought to support the assertion of a person these few do not like they either turn to misinterpreting what was written by the people they are hunting or search desperately for another way to destroy whatever that person is doing.

I'm sorry if you feel intimidated by them - but you have to stand up to bullying. This lot almost never leave people alone once they have decided they are not to be liked - and you are already 'it' as far as they are concerned - unless a moderator steps in again. But then they will just wait for another opportunity. It isn't nice, but there you are.

gtg
all the best,
raggidman

Now lock this thing.

:shakehead:

You are aware that Vivec was born full grown in the sermons? That they describe his birth as a god, not as a man? At this the egg laughed. 'I am given too much to bear so young. I must have been born before.'

It joined with the Daedroth and took its former secrets, leaving a few behind to keep the web of the world from disentangling. Then the Black Hands Mephala put the egg back into the netchiman's wife and blew on her with magic breath until the hole closed up. But the Daedroth did not give her back her eyes, saying:

If anything Vivec touched on Mephala. In his birth as a god Vivec took the mantle of Mephala and left only enough to retain the natural order of things. This is a fairly roundabout description of a process called mantling, "walk like them until they must walk like you".

Misinterpretation of the sermons aside, merely the fact that the possibility exists does not make it true. Otherwise it wouldn't be the tabloids writing about the Queen Mothers suspected lisbianism. Always a possibility.

Ugh! What a horrible thread!

(And, yes, the Ayleidoon fled to Valenwood after the uprising and interbred with the Elves there, and they all lived happily ever after. Or something.)

Yeesh, guys, cut it out with the bickering! :stare: