People Missing the Point? : V - Skyrim

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:18 pm

you can't just turn on tessellation. The assets need to be developed with that in mind, there are several things that must be laid out correctly for them to tesselate correctly, and have displacement maps, or else it will just turn into a blob.

Right but those things are not hard to implement. Look at all the games that have been console multiplatform games to have tessellation added, AVP,Dirt 2,Lost Planet 2,HAWX 2. Other games added it late in development, literally like 5 months time such as STALKER COP. But they have known they were designing a 2011 game engine for five years, I'm sure they laid groundwork for DX11 effects. Besides while its optimal to design with displacement maps in the first place you can very easily replace bump maps with Displacement maps.

» Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:20 am

you can't just turn on tessellation. The assets need to be developed with that in mind, there are several things that must be laid out correctly for them to tesselate correctly, and have displacement maps, or else it will just turn into a blob.

If your models are clean and optimized properly anyway, it is not much work to implement tessellation.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:00 am

huh...what are you talking about...i was agreeing with you.
the reason i say that they are 360 is because of the limitations of that console. it wont get the higher res that ps3 and pc get, just saying. and if you look at some of the screens you can see a bit of pixelation. its not a big deal, it just means that it will look MORE amazing when we get some HD screens.
and crysis is a game that looks better. not a big deal, and as agent said the fact that its stylized means that its graphical limitations will not be noticed as much and it can focus on gameplay instead of graphics.
not trying to insult the game, or you, so please dont get so defensive.

dude what the hell are you talking about 360 has better graphics, the ps3 are too squarish i think 360 has more defined and blended pixels, or maybe its cause i play mine off a HDMI cable. not to mention oblivion looked better for 360 than it did for ps3 and i played and seen plenty of both being played and i dont give a crap what anyone says.Skyrim on my LCD TV with the HDMI cable will look just as good as a beefed up PC

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:50 pm

I got my first glimpse of the graphics just today. I think it was the screen of the character fighting a were wolf. Not sure. But my jaw dropped. This is my most anticipated game of the year. It may not be the best looking game ever, but it lived up to my expectations so far.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:55 pm

I got my first glimpse of the graphics just today. I think it was the screen of the character fighting a were wolf. Not sure. But my jaw dropped. This is my most anticipated game of the year. It may not be the best looking game ever, but it lived up to my expectations so far.

My instant reaction to that screen was wow..this is on 360 and PS3!? Props Bethesda! Check the bar maid shot. Their modeling team has been busy! Also looks to be pushing more polygons than Oblivion...to my eye from the few screens. Could just be the nice art style idk.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:30 pm

dude what the hell are you talking about 360 has better graphics, the ps3 are too squarish i think 360 has more defined and blended pixels, or maybe its cause i play mine off a HDMI cable. not to mention oblivion looked better for 360 than it did for ps3 and i played and seen plenty of both being played and i dont give a crap what anyone says.Skyrim on my LCD TV with the HDMI cable will look just as good as a beefed up PC

But will your Skyrim looks as good in 5 years

.

The console fight is pointless, everyone gets a pretty good product. PCs will get the modification capabilities though, the reason Oblivion and Morrowind are still selling well to this day on PC, is because there are modifications that bring them closer to modern technical standards. I've just done a fresh install of Morrowind and Oblivion, installed all the graphical bits and pieces and they both look amazing.

It's stupid how much better Oblivion looks with SSAO and a denser forest/vegetation mod.

EDIT: My post was pretty pointless, just really chuffed at how good these games look after years.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:55 pm

If your models are clean and optimized properly anyway, it is not much work to implement tessellation.

true, there isn't much to it from the white papers I read, there is an article somewhere that describes all the do's,don'ts, issues and fixes from the artists perceptive.
from what I recall, depending on what kind of tessellation is used in the shader, there is this whole thing with UVs subdiving, and also the meshes start to split at UV seams. You'd find quite a lot of meshes UVs will not be set up this way unless it is modeled with tessellation in mind.

I was just pointing out, for people who are not 3d inclined, all the assets that will use that shader will need displacement maps, and have tighter restrictions on UV layout.( though imo not really any more tighter than some engines normal maps shader) Like I said, you can't just enable the shader and voila.
edit: the point is the assets on the 360 disk will in all likelihood be the same as the PC version. So i doubt they'd include displacement maps or dev the assets with tessellation in mind, tessellation is not happening just for PC users imo. Nextgen... then it's on!

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:08 pm

For me, the only thing that matters is pretending that I am the greatest hero or villain that has ever lived. Skyrim's groundbreaking graphics and AI add to that feeling of my self feeling on top of the world. I may start weak, but I shall get stronger. The tougher things I can fight, the more sense of strength I get. The more powerful magic I can cast, the smarter I feel in the game. I don't need a skill to tell me I'm getting better at something so long as I can see my progress visually. That is immersion imo, can I see my progress and effects visually. The skills and attributes are just a template, they don't really add or subtract anything from the elder scrolls series. They just kind of exist. The people who are getting all up in arms about the skills and attributes need to rethink what the Elder Scrolls games have always been about. Now, obviously things are different to other people, but to me it has always about how would I live in this world, and do the visuals and lore add to that. Everything else is just icing on the cake to me.

If your character is actually getting better in-game (and you are not just pretending that you are good at melee/magic/whatever), that means the game keeps track of some stats.
Does it kill your immersion if some kind of detailed, old-school stat sheet is available to the player? Why take features away? If you're just saying it's not the most important thing for FPS/RPG hybrids, then I suppose I agree.
What do you mean about seeing this progress visually? Like in Fable? For now, the character customisation seems to be skin-deep only, not related to skills or attributes. That EVIL necromancer might even get fangs, horns, pale skin and green flames coming out of various orifices, but he'll still just be another Jack-of-all-trades, at least initially.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:10 pm

The skills and attributes are just a template, they don't really add or subtract anything from the elder scrolls series. They just kind of exist. The people who are getting all up in arms about the skills and attributes need to rethink what the Elder Scrolls games have always been about. Now, obviously things are different to other people, but to me it has always about how would I live in this world, and do the visuals and lore add to that. Everything else is just icing on the cake to me.

Finally some one said it. :goodjob:

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:37 pm

I will be blunt, graphix were never my top priority in any game.

nothing has changed, the game looks pretty good, and if it won't make my PC explode I will be double glad, honestly some people just go crazy for uber graphixs... sure its nice to have but I will not throw-up if I see a few pixels every now and then.

» Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:51 am

For me, immersion comes from well written and realised gameworld (in-world consistency and a sense of purpose and reason for being there for people and places) and quests, both of which are reactive to my choices (in-quest and characterbuild based), and from the feeling that that the whole world doesn't spin around me (the player). State of the art graphics are just a bonus - in the visual department these days when graphical quality and sharpness and what not don't really need to improve anymore, artistic style is much more important.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:45 pm

Ok, so let's take a look at the graphics...name me one game that looks as good as those screens and I'll be impressed. Honestly, even those Crysis mods don't look as good as the images on page 49. I don't seem to understand why people are complaining about the graphics, they look phenomenal. It just seems to me that people had set their own expectations to high. I don't see low rez textures, or poor tessellation. I see everything and all things improved. To me, the elder scrolls was always about the immersion as in just walking around in aww of the land scape. I remember back with dagger fall I was shocked with the size and scope of the game. To be honest I was slightly over whelmed and intimidated by such vastness. When they announced Morrowind I was just as excited as I was when they announced Skyrim and Oblivion before it. Morrowind made my jaw drop from the sheer alien aspect of the world. I couldn't help but just look up and around. When Oblivion was released it was the same thing, I couldn't wait to explore every cave nook and cranny to make my character the best character their was. At it's heart The Elder Scrolls has never been about the attributes or for that matter even the Skills. The Skills Add flavor to the world, and some are necessary to do that. I would be fine with out skills as well, they don't add to the game for me.

For me, the only thing that matters is pretending that I am the greatest hero or villain that has ever lived. Skyrim's groundbreaking graphics and AI add to that feeling of my self feeling on top of the world. I may start weak, but I shall get stronger. The tougher things I can fight, the more sense of strength I get. The more powerful magic I can cast, the smarter I feel in the game. I don't need a skill to tell me I'm getting better at something so long as I can see my progress visually. That is immersion imo, can I see my progress and effects visually. The skills and attributes are just a template, they don't really add or subtract anything from the elder scrolls series. They just kind of exist. The people who are getting all up in arms about the skills and attributes need to rethink what the Elder Scrolls games have always been about. Now, obviously things are different to other people, but to me it has always about how would I live in this world, and do the visuals and lore add to that. Everything else is just icing on the cake to me.

PLEASE KEEP THIS ABOUT IMMERSION, IT IS NOT ABOUT GRAPHICS per say, I'm tired of all the off topic rants about what's better.

Well said, I completely agree. I would be content with oblivion graphics... it is the immersion in the world that really makes the game. It as if you are in a very real world, make any decision you want. That is what makes the games so good.

» Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:05 am

The skills and attributes are just a template, they don't really add or subtract anything from the elder scrolls series. They just kind of exist. The people who are getting all up in arms about the skills and attributes need to rethink what the Elder Scrolls games have always been about.

I actually agree with this ~I don't like it, and to me its the foulest form of RPG, but that's what TES always seemed to be about ~from my experience with it.
(which is limited to 30 minutes of Morrowind, 20 minutes in Arena, and a 26th level acrobat in Oblivion).

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:05 pm

The environments in the screenshots aren't made up entirely of lumpy carpet-like heightmaps, so they're definitely a major improvement over Oblivion. And no, it's not Gamebryo. That's been confirmed for so long, so many times and by so many different sources that I'm amazed you'd claim otherwise.

EDIT: And if we're going to be talking semantics, I might as well go ahead and point out that Gamebryo isn't the main reason why Oblivion's environments looked the way they did.

Call me stubborn, but I'm still not totally convinced that this is not a Gamebryo based engine. Look at Todd Howard's comments about their new engine being Gamebryo 2.0, along with the statement he made a few months back:

"Speaking with EuroGamer, Todd Howard, fresh from his role as Executive Producer of Fallout 3, made it clear that although the studio would be using the engine that they have built three of their four previous games upon, they’ve been working on squeezing every last drop of performance out of it. “It started with Morrowind, we went to Oblivion, we did a lot between Oblivion and Fallout 3 because now we had final hardware,” he explains, “with Oblivion, we had six months on final hardware, so Fallout 3 technically does a lot more than Oblivion. The new stuff is an even bigger jump from that.”

Why exactly would he lie about using a heavily modified version of Gamebryo, unless he was afraid of the backlash of the community who was sick of it. Combine that with the fact that the enemies in the screens (especially the were-yeti looking thing), bear an uncanny resemblance to those in Oblivion. Also, when you look at the details and the textures in the outdoor scenes (the snow ones in particular), the textures and details look very Gamebryo like. In my opinion, they have tweaked and modified and re-written the engine so much that they are calling it a new engine. That would explain why they were torn between calling it Gamebryo 2.0 and "a new, internally developed" engine.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I am complaining, because I think the game looks amazing. They obviously addressed the character models, and that was my main gripe with Oblivion and FO3. As long as the animations and LOD scaling are a huge improvement, which I believe they will be, then I will be completely happy.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:44 pm

Is it possible that they replaced the renderer in the Fallout 3 engine?
(I'm not familiar enough with it to know just how intimately linked the Gamebryo renderer was to their custom code, but I did wonder if it could be basically the same engine, just using different asset formats, and a new renderer :shrug:)

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:42 am

For me, immersion comes from well written and realised gameworld (in-world consistency and a sense of purpose and reason for being there for people and places) and quests, both of which are reactive to my choices (in-quest and characterbuild based), and from the feeling that that the whole world doesn't spin around me (the player). State of the art graphics are just a bonus - in the visual department these days when graphical quality and sharpness and what not don't really need to improve anymore, artistic style is much more important.

Very well said, I agree that it's going about artistic style now. How do you make your game stand up against others when everything looks so good, how visually appealing can you make our world be. Artistic style adds value and weight to the world that your trying to create.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:57 pm

Is it possible that they replaced the renderer in the Fallout 3 engine?
(I'm not familiar enough with it to know just how intimately linked the Gamebryo renderer was to their custom code, but I did wonder if it could be basically the same engine, just using different asset formats, and a new renderer :shrug:)

That's pretty much what I was thinking. That would explain the confusion with them claiming they were using and updated version of Gamebryo, and then backtracking and claiming it is a brand new engine.

» Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:48 pm

Or better still, don't talk about immersion. It makes us get our hopes up only to be smashed by reality,