balance is fun

and fun is balanced

:P

well its paramount for me, cheating even on the NPC is just pointless, if there is no challenge why play in the first place !!!

I think that it should be closer to New Vegas or Morrowind in terms of balance. High level loot, like artifacts or unique weapons, should be in high level places or high-level quests. I loved finding stuff like the Dragonbone Mail in Morrowind or the Paladin Toaster in New Vegas. It provides an incentive to explore, because you never know where one of these might be located, and is balanced because you won't be able to get to them without fighting things like Dremora and Claanfears.

It's called self control. You don't have to go grab that unique item you know about, ya'know.

The game only becomes unbalanced once you know everything about it.
For example: if you played through the game for the first time without knowing anything and exploring at random, with no research on the net as to locations or wat level to get what weapon to maximise the enchantments, then the game is far better.

I played through oblivion for the first time and loved it. My second playthrough I applied my knowledge of the game which I had learned, to create a more suitable character for my needs etc, but also knew that certain items were better after certain levels and it kind of made me only want to get them at that time.
What I'm getting at is, once you start researching the game, either on the web or playing guides, you do learn additional things but also it's a kind of spoiler.

The self control argument has some serious problems.

If you have to rely on self control, it's the player who is in charge of how the game unfolds, not the game itself. It's always more fun when you can focus on just playing the game rather than both playing the game and making up the rules while you play. It's like if someone was playing dungeons and dragons and was his own dungeon master.

Balance is very important to me in online multiplayer games like a FPS such as BFBC2. In single player games like Elder Scrolls I really don't care. I'm not effecting anyone else if I use an overpowered weapon. People hated the dodgy balancing in COD MW2 because certain weapons were arguably overpowered. People hated dieing to someone using the UMP45. In a single player game I wouldn't be ruining someone elses game by using the most powerful sword in the game all the time.

I really dont think balancing should matter in a single player game AT ALL. Some classes SHOULD be easier to play then others. Like every
class and race shouldnt have the same difficulty level off the start. Most rpgs, mages are alot harder to use off the bat, but by the end of the
game they are god characters. Thats fine with me, its a single player game god dammit, it doesnt matter to anyone else how strong your character
is. its not like you and a friend are gonna have eachother's characters fight eachother, so really it doesnt matter.

Agreed.

-----

The game should be balanced, selfgimping (having to avoid getting better in order to keep the game "balanced") should never be forced upon the player.

Interesting topic. I really don't understand people criticising a discussion about such an important element of the game and one which is the source of such varying opinions. Surely there's more merit to this than the threads praising bethesda for the wonderful game that none of us have even played.

Anyway: I think it needs to be balanced in the sense that there's always a challenge to be found and that the good stuff is suitably rare and protected. Saying that i want the opportunity to become unbalance in a fair way. Invulnerability isn't fun but spending ages tracking down and aquiring the pieces for an awesome set of armour that makes all but the very best fighters blows feel like a tickle seems ok. What i mean is i want a chance to earn cool stuff and for that cool stuff to remain cool and not be superceded or become common by levelling. I don't want the sort of balance that makes the world feel like it revolves around me.

From what I get from this poll, it's the matter of finding level 50 swords at level 3. I hated dragon age origins for that. The pre-order stuff I got lasted the entire game. Very lame. So I hate finding the uber gear early.

I think that high level items should be inside a cave (or whatever dungeon type thing) behind many high level tough enemies. That way low levels have no chance of getting the item(s) at the end and high level players actually feel like they overcame 'the' obstacle to get the shiny item.
It seems like with the tech Bethesda is talking about, they can automatically place these monsters with appropriate rewards.
I HATED the leveled stuff in oblivion. Getting an impure amber curiass instead of perfect one would be lame. (who gets to shivering isles at level 5 anyways?)

haha thats awesome.

Isn't playing and making up the rules yourself the definition of Role Playing? I'll give you a specific example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRlQ9rsDyPM If someone like Cartman just keeps making them more powerful than everyone else then the game isn't fun to play. Self control is integral to RP

I agree with the importance of balance, and I am playing a heavily modded version of Oblivion that corrects some of the balance issues.

In a single player game, the balance is not about having an edge over some other player, it is about having a more enjoyable experience. If there is not enough challenge, it is less enjoyable for me personally. Getting a high level sword early is not quite the same thing as typing "tgm" in the console and running through the game without taking damage, but if that sword instantly makes every enemy too easy to kill then it becomes boring.

However, IMO if Bethesda wants to ship the largest number of units and reach the widest possible audience, we are talking about lots of people who have never played Oblivion or Morrowind, including some who may become frustrated if the game is too difficult. My guess is that the gameplay balance in Skyrim will be slightly improved from Oblivion, but still skewed in favor of the player in a way that will need to be corrected with mods.

The leveled creatures and items is a part of this, and I really hope it is improved for vanilla Skyrim. IIRC, New Vegas had a great system for leveled creatures, where there were some areas with very tough enemies that you could approach at level 1 , or simply run away from them. If you go through the effort at a lower level to try to make your way through a very tough high level dungeon, you should be able to get some appropriate high-level reward.

If I buy Skyrim and my friend down the road buys Skyrim, why would I care if he was exploiting a balance issue in the game to make his game easier?

Nope, that's not the definition of roleplaying. Like I mentioned, pen and paper RPG's have someone else making and enforcing the rules, while you are playing within them. If your playstyle makes the game too easy the dungeon master actually has the power to adjust the rules on the fly to make the game more fun and challenging.

Now, if the dungeon master is actively trying to ruin your experience then it's not fun (see your south park example).

Single player computer games can't have dungeon masters of course, but the Radiant Story they have mentioned seems to be a step in the right direction.

Getting a powerful item is not unbalanced. Finding an unbalanced item is unbalanced.

I was a little disappointed in Oblivion when I first started playing. I searched ruins for hours looking for a unique weapon. then I heard all the loot was leveled and that ruined the game for me for a while.

yes i don't care if they have a ton of high level items they just need to be hard to get such as umbra. if you try to get that weapon at a low level and you don't change the difficulty you r more than likely going to die. or they could make puzzles that you have to pass that are randomly generated each time so that you cant memerize them. ii think that this would make you feel accomplished when you get it. and no weapon leveling that was stupid

I'm of the opinion that some level of balance will be striven for, no matter what. I'd prefer to see the extreme scaling go away though. If things are nestled away, that just gives more satisfaction to exploring a place you haven't been to. What people do with those things is their own business, and if the game is too "easy" because of what you've done, then impose some self-limits.

For me personally, balance is probably going to be a non-issue, assuming we're not stuck in a level rut like in Oblivion. I'm a notorious "Rules Lawyer" and I never fight fair... unless the character I'm trying to play is otherwise. But my rogues generally adhere to the philosophy of striking first, hard, and where it hurts, as the purpose of fighting is to win and if you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics svck. Assuming they fight at all.

I'm willing to bet that the various public outcry has been heard, though. We'll probably see something similar to Morrowind in terms of monster and item placement.

i like oblivion because on the normal difficulty, you are NO different than any other NPC in the game. The only thing you had on them is human intelligence. i think they should keep the difficulty slider so that way someone that likes to have an edge on their enemies can, and those that like it 100% balanced can have that too. and you are crazy if you play it on the hardest haha. thats when you really have to utilize your spells and potions and skills in combat.