As you know, I am working on a mod called Suffer the Children ( previously called Children of Fallout 3 ) and I have reached a certain point barring my proceeding.

I wish to incorporate a few mods and have messaged the creators of said mods.

Ok, so my question being.

How long should i wait before proceeding if there is no mention in the readmes or no readmes at all regarding permissions to use these mods?

I, of course, do intend to give credit where credit is due BUT am unsure how to proceed. I could of course inspect the mods and how they do what they do and create my own version or could use them as is with edits to work with my mod, but would this be ethical?

You need credit from the author to use someone else's material, even if you can't get ahold of them. Copyright law is such that without specific permission, the author can demand its removal. If you use their materials without permission, and they find out, they will have the right to demand you remove their content.

It's worthwhile to REALLY try and get ahold of the developers of content if you want to use it, and failing that, either make the content yourself or find another source of similar materials. I'm sure its not the answer you wanted, but this is a very slippery slope for those who walk it, and I've seen the nasty results when people demand content be removed. I would spare you that and avoid the material if you can't reach the authors.

Luck!

Miax

Unless the mod author has actually applied for and received a patent for their mod from the US Patent/Copyright Office (or any other countries patent office equivalent), they don't actually have any legal grounds to make a claim for a copyright infringement if you use their mod without their permission. But that doesn't mean that the policy of the forum that hosts your file can't take it down. Legally, pretty much anything posted on the internet is public, even e-mail. But its still unethical to use someone else's work without their knowledge. Some modders actually post that you can use their stuff without contacting them. For me, I have the opinion that anything I upload can be used by anyone. I believe in the 'open source' ideal and am flattered if somebody wants to use my stuff. The only thing I don't like is if they just copy it verbatim and upload it as their own work. Also, copyrights don't hold internationally unless copyrights were obtained in those other countries as well. I don't believe that Interpol investigates international copyright infringement where the country in question does not recognize the foreign copyright. But in the USA, it can be vigorously pursued.

I've seen this question and its answer(s) go all kinds of ways but loose.

Anything that anyone made with the GECK is the property of Bethesda. Apparently, Bethesda presently doesn't mind its property (mods) being distributed, re-used, etc.

Anything someone made exclusively with like, FO3edit, or Blender/NIFScope, or audacity - - stuff other than GECK - - that's more involved, I think.

Want to stick straight to the legalese? Do whatever the hell you feel with a GECK-created mod that someone else released, it is identical to modding the game itself. Or, want to smooth people's feathers? Make an effort to contact the author. And if that contact effort fails - - do what you wilt.

I think some people hate my position on this, but.... what can I say.

Additionally -

This does not pertain to much, but anyway. When I personally incorporate mods into Phalanx, I've always tried to reach the author and in many cases I succeed. When I do not succeed, I consider contacting them to be an ongoing effort, but, I don't wait too long before including the content.

I don't have an interest in using content that someone else created if that person is so insane as to freak out and tell me to remove it. Most of the time I can create the content myself anyway, and if I can't, I can find someone else to willingly get me replacement content. Offering to include someone else's content in my mod is a complement to them - I have no desire to complement an insane person who wants to try to give me a hard time.

Well, I don't hate your position. It sounds spot on.

Patents and trademarks have nothing to do with copyright, and nothing requires you to publish your work or register a copyright; your work receives copyright protection from the instant you created it. With a few strange exceptions like Guatemala, copyright in one country is good everywhere; you do not need to register your copyright in any other country. You may have to register your copyright before suing somebody for infringement, but that's all.

If you use somebody else's mod without permission, you are committing copyright infringement. The question is whether anybody would bother to act on that infringement. The usual problems seem to be:

* Making a compilation of mods. Many modders don't want their work used in compilations, because the compilation memorializes a version of the mod that will become obsolete. The possibly obsolete and buggy version distributed with the compilation can't be maintained by the original modder and reflects badly on the author. I'll state this one flatly: Don't even think of publishing a compilation of mods unless you have actually contacted all the authors, received express permission, agreed to abide by conditions they set on their permission, and then actually do so.

* Making a change that goes contrary to the intent of the original mod. A mod expresses the intent of its author, and the author may not be willing to countenance changes that go to the intent of the mod. At one extreme, a mod may place something special and elevated into the game, and a change that appears to desecrate that will not be welcomed; for example, any change to Children of Morrowind that would allow children to be harmed. At the other extreme, the author may have intentionally disregarded compatibility with other mods, and even changing the mod for compatibility would not be permitted.

I'd never use anyone's creations without getting permission first. Its not that I am afraid of breaking some sort of law. Its more about extending common courtesy.

If you do go and use the material in question without having permission or getting in touch with the author might I suggest keeping all of your sent emails to the author. This way, if he / she ever does come back at you complaining that you never received permission you can resend all of the past emails with an explanation: "See...I did ask, you never responded..." type of thing. Put the ball back in their court.

As for ethics....meh...its half a dozen of one and six of the other.

If you don't feel comfortable taking and using the content without permission then don't. Like I said before, I'm not totally against using the content without permission I just think its more about common courtesy. I'd like to be told when someone is going to use my creations. I personally don't care if someone uses my created mods without asking as long as like it was said before, they don't claim it as their own.

if even there is no readme/permissions given, It is assumed you do not have permission. They have to be explicitly expressed.

people have stolen my assets several times. moved them to other game engines etc. stolen little pieces of geometry/textures.

Many things I have released I don't care about, and basically are crap art wise, so its not worth defending the assets against rippers who can't do anything better, probably because they svck worse than me. I just lol. They are nobodies. and in no way damage me.

Not much can be done about it in any case. I do like to sneak in private jokes to myself on some of my assets. Like reading the galactic basic on some of my star wars assets might say something like "ModderXXX is a idiot" or something.
or it might be complete gibberish
I know its childish. hey it makes me laugh so whatever :flamethrower:
I have been thinking to sign my textures. find a little space and add my modder handle. so when my stuff gets ripped off. at least if someone looks, its there.


that doesn't put the ball into their court. asking for permission does not grant any special privileges to using someone elses work. < you still didn't receive any permission, you might as well just used the stuff and have not asked in the first place. Granted some credit is due for trying. and looks a lot better on your reputation

This is, in effect, exactly what I was saying. Without registering your work, there is no way to easily prove which is the original and which is the copy. And if Bethesda owns all copyrights to mods (I am taking Tarrant's word for this as I do not know this myself) made with their products, then no modder has any legal copyright to any mod anyway.

Actually I think a case can be made easily that Bethesda only owns the rights to any esp/esm made using their tools. They cannot claim rights to created textures and meshes if not made using their tools as the textures and meshes can be used outside the game. Nor do I believe they can lay claim to any quests/stories incorporated as part of the mod as these can also be used independently of the game in other games.

I'm going by the agreement I had to click when I installed the GECK, is all.

That agreement would carry the same relative weight as the Microsoft agreement that gets people's threads constantly blocked in here (the one where they demand that you don't mod your console).

I'm not an intellectual property rights lawyer but I got fairly high reading comprehension if I'm paying attention (which well.... nevermind).

Oh, man, I hate this new place. I didn't mean to reply here. But now I will and off topic. Old on while I do it in an edit. Ack.

You do not have to register your copyright. Ever. Not registering in no way damages your claim of ownership. Registering it before something gets stolen is in some cases, the easiest way to prove you are the author/own the work. Most of the time you can just produce a zillion things that as the copyright holder, you're the only one that has them. At least in my case, I can prove I created all my artwork as I am the only one that has the master copies. It would be a rather open and shut case. I suppose written works might be hard to time stamp. :shrug:
I don't think its worth doing unless its one of those million dollar ideas, or something that would be hard to otherwise produce evidence of author/ownership.

don't worry the eula with the geck is as much covering bethesdas bum as yours. they'd very likely never take a modders work and claim it their own and do anything with it. It's not worth the paper it's printed on. Almost always eula have no validity in courts and are not considered binding.

Well, I am waiting on just one more permission. I have decided that should I not receive it, I will do it on my own. All it seems to be is retextures of existing equipment.

easy way to prove is through release dates on your mods.

If you release mod A on the web and someone uses it and is a jerk about it.

You have upload times, and most often backup copies with file dates on them.

I could set my system clock back 2 years and thereby have "2 year old backup copies".

File dates are not the best way to prove anything.

@DogsBody,

Thank you for the clarification.

For us modders then its just as simple as, "Don't use someone else's work without permission".

I for one could not agree more.

They are when it's logged and cached on multiple locations.

aka: the uploaded module it stored at nexus. Google and other search engines will cache it, there will be upload times and dates.

Even more so if you use more than one site to distribute the module.

I think you will have to answer this question yourself, as there is clearly no consensus on what you should or should not do. If there was, there wouldn't be much to this thread, would there?

You mentioned the word 'Ethics' in the title. Looking at the question from that perspective, (and not as a legal debate on copyright etc. which would be mostly non-productive as this is the internet and each poster would be subject to different laws, i.e. the laws of the country they are posting from) I would have to lean towards 'do what you wish' with the mods in question. In the end it would become a matter of weighing the collective good against that of an individual (if you are planning to share your mod with others) and in that case the collective good would win every time.

Again, subject to the social norms of where you are posting from. This being the internet. An international 'forum' (in it's original meaning).

I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, really, buuuuuut...

That sounds too black-and-white to me, no matter where you got it. The only way I'd believe that this is Bethesda's rule as a result of any messageboard post is if Gstaff said it, and then I'd be really puzzled.

And if that did happen, Foes Reworked NG exists against Bethesda's will, and the 'problem' content is also in FWE, and also in Phalanx there is a vendor overhaul mod which in its construction referenced a much smaller vendor-changing mod whose author is listed in the documentation credits.

Right. Thats what I meant, just used the incorrect terminology. Again, I'm not condoning using stuff without permission. I personally wouldn't out of common courtesy and respect for the authors hard work.

But then again, I'm still a newb when it comes to modding and no one likes my stuff anyway.

Your not being an ass

But your also mistaken on this. DogsBody has it correct, and aside from splitting hairs, it is clearly Not ethical to use someone else's content without permission. You make great arguments to be sure, but there is No way around that basic fact.

Cheers!

Miax