Many of us dislike the speechcraft minigame from Oblivion. Yet with TES's skill system it's very hard to implement speechcraft skill effectively and intuitively.

Let's first think about the word "speechcraft". in real life there are two uses for speechcraft: informative and persuasive. Well, in a game we don't need to inform other NPC about anything, so persuasion is what's left, and what speechcraft is really about in TES.

Now let's think about why the minigame in oblivion doesn't make sense. In real life, how do you usually persuade someone, especially if the person is a total stranger (or even dislike you for some reason)? You make them like you better. You list facts. You tell them why your suggestion is good for them. You use your knowledge to impress them. You utilize verbal tricks to trick their mind... and so on. However with the minigame, the only factor of persuasion is how much the person likes you (disposition). That's not how persuasion should work, because you can still persuade someone who doesn't like you if your suggestion fits their personal interests.

So, how should we model persuasion in a game where the only way to raise a skill is to use it?

First lets ask ourselves, how do we become better at persuasion in real life? We take classes. We socialize, talk to people. Therefore, we can model this in game as well. I suggest that by doing the following things, our speechcraft skill gets improved:

1. By talking to NPC and exhaust all topics. Intuitively, by talking to people, we learn to read facial expression, we practice verbal skills, and we become savvy with socializing. If we do this, we also encourage people to talk to every NPC.
2. By doing quests in non-violent ways. For some quests you may have a choice whether to kill the person or do it in a peaceful way. By doing that, you learn to persuade.
3. By successfully utilize your other skills in conversations. This is like in New Vegas when you talk to someone and if your science level is high enough you can say some jargon. By doing this you practice using your knowledge.
4. If they combine barter and speechcraft, then by bartering with merchants you can also improve your speechcraft.


This way, the devs still have this speechcraft skill so they don't have to make big changes to the game. They just need to modify the conversation scripts a little bit...

Do you think this can be implemented in Skyrim?

Check this out: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1157904-how-could-speechcraft-work/

Well, I think this needs some more visibility....

Ah yes Speechcraft my number 1 filler major skill. It needs to be revamped in Skyrim. I would love for it to be like it was in Morrowind with the Taunt Option.

ewwwwwww :sick:

oblivion speech wheel, GET IT OFF ME GET IT OFF GET IT OFFFFFFFFF.

that's what I think about it.

It certainly needs to be revamped. I liked the Fallout 3 system, although there was no disposition factor to take into account in that game so I suppose it was a bit easier to make a fun system.

LOL, that made me giggle for a bit.

It's a little late for that I think.

I'd rather they do no speech craft mini-game at all. It's more natural in FO3 to have options in the dialogue lines.

5. You forgot looking good. Many times in real life you may find yourself telling a stranger more than you normally would because, well, they look good. ie your smitten. :teehee: This could be utilized in game by your character species, gender, the type of armor/clothing your wearing, etc.

yea good point, this way there's some use for all the non-armor clothing pieces in the game.

who else likes my idea?

It's never too late to not make big changes to a game. :huh:

Deutschland, two things:
1) Your name is awkward. :homestar:
2) Your idea is awesome. :cheat:

I especially agree with the idea that using your other skills in dialogue should improve your Speechcraft skill. Of course, success in using the knowledge of other skills should be dependent on your Speechcraft skill, too. It shouldn't be a 100% chance like in Fallout 3 - in that game, you rarely even needed Speech because you could gather all the information you needed with the dialogue that was available due to high attributes or skills.

I really want a New Vegas system, but I don't know how it can work because we're still using the increasing skills by doing system.

with my idea, speechcraft is a little bit special, cuz you gain level not by doing "speechcraft" but by doing other things - as listed in my thread

As long as there are options for all character types:

A fighter could threaten based on his Strength level, a Rogue could use speechcraft and a Mage could use jedi-mindtricks.

there's no jedi in TES

Maybe there is jedi in TES?

my idea is the only way to implement intuitive speechcraft skill.

Deutschland is German for "Germany" :grad:

On topic, yes, there definitely needs to be a new speechcraft system. However, I'd prefer a minigame (albeit one that doesn't svck as much as Oblivion's) over a completely RNG-based system like Morrowind or Fallout 3 or a system that completely halts progression until you get X skill to Y value like New Vegas.

I personally love the speechcraft system in Oblivion. I don't see what's wrong with it. You have four things to pick from and you try to match up the biggest chunk of the bar in each of the positive choices and minimize the negative choices. I mastered that system and I think it was much more intuitive and interesting than the previous speechcraft systems. I mean, it's useless to have speechcraft skill with that system but speechcraft is most likely one of the 3 skills removed. It and the lockpicking system I think were two of the best additions to the TES series. Frankly, it makes plenty of sense too. It's just like real life, if you get someone to like you enough, they will spill their guts to you.

I'll be honest here, I liked the minigame. I would have liked that game if it didn't have anything to do with speechcraft at all! It was also the best way to fill your levels (as a major) after you had all your +5s. Just sit there and click the button in a random direction with almost any NPC.

The whole improving skills by doing principle is only getting better with Skyrim, I'm sure of it. With this, it would seem that actually going through dialog strings and, perhaps, perks would be the real speechcraft skill.

I consider clicking mouse in a random fashion not a game but a waste of time

You mean Elder Scrolls doesn't take place a long time ago in a galaxy far far away? You just blew my mind. :prod: