Debate Point:

The Enclave in Fallout 2 wanted to shove FEV into the jet-stream so that they could kill every non-innoculated human on the planet, which meant mutants and PURE strain foreigners.

Problem: First of all, the airborne FEV that Richardson whined about was only affecting certain groups, but did not include these people:

The Shi
Brotherhood
Navarro?
N.C.R
Vault City

Problem Point: Immoral and pointless. Dozens of genetic stockholders wiped out because of one mans idiocy.



Debate Point #2: Edens " Final Solution "

In Fallout 3, the Enclave Remnants actually turned " Neutral/Good" and began to clean the wasteland of mutants, killing off ghouls, super muties, mutated humans, and passed out freaking pure water to people who took the " Genetic Compliance Test", which seemed pretty damn fair to me. What I love about Eden's plan is that it doesn't kill normal humans, it only kills mutated humans and creatures.

In Eden's dialogue, he specifically mentioned that he "Modified" Richardsons FEV from the West Coast and made it more potent, but took out the " Inoculation" perk from it, which meant that most wastelanders would live, if they weren't mutated, and since the airborne FEV from the West Coast after the West Tek Facility blew up only reached California, that mean's most D.C residents would have been pure, thus rendering the solution valid and partially moral, as they say.

Problem: People whine too much about morality. Point to be take: The mean's meet the end.

Problem Point: Whining and anti-Enclave sentiment because of Richardsons sick plans. THAT WAS RICHARDSON, NOT NAVARRO, NOT SGT.GRANITE, and NOT EVERY CITIZEN OR SCIENTIST. THAT WAS RICHARDSON. GET IT RIGHT.


The Enclave in Fallout 3 weren't under the leadership of a psycho. Eden had genuine plans, and people say he lied to the player when he offered you a position in the Enclave. Point to be made again: He didn't know you were born on the outside, and he didn't know you were probably mutated, so that's why the FEV killed you. He had a genuine offer.



People I would like to respond:

Pistolero
Metrophor
Darhendru
Anyone else from the fan-site. Come on guys.

In all honesty, its always been the guys in charge of the Enclave who have been the problem. Autumn was the perfect fit for a morally good Enclave leader, with good intentions without horrible costs.



I find it hard to construe President Eden as 'good' in any way, shape or form. His plan boils down to "kill them because they are not 'pure' "
Im actually finding it very hard to not have a Godwins law moment here



The mean's meet then end? :mellow:
Cant help but be brought back to the last thing i said.


Eden wasnt a psycho? You might need to elaborate on that point, as i fail to see any evidence to support it. How where his plans not psychotic?
How do you know his intention wasnt to kill you?




Specifically choosing people to reply? Ive not seen that before. 'the fan-site'?

I like how you pointed out that the Enclave had an innoculation to their FEV, It's good to see someone else point that out. To a normal person killing off everyone else you don't see fit to live if very Immoral. To a Genocidal mad man it's saving the world. Also the people at Navarro are Enclave and therefore would have been protected, innoculated from the FEV.

As for FO3's Plan that was half baked at best and it all came down to "I hope the Lone Wanderer helps us." Most of the Enclave were against it. Was that not the reason Autumn rebelled? Their FEV would have killed anyone drinking the water, they are mutated as well. It would not have killed everything on the planet like the one in FO2. Just because they did not talk about an innoculation does not mean they did not have one.

Still that plan was Immoral to anyone that's not a Genocidal mad man.

The problem is I don't think anyone met the Enclave's genetic purity test, except perhaps enclave members. Non Nuclear mutation is a normal part of biology (even in fallout's).

I don't think it's entirely welcome to "call people out" this way.

I'd strongly suggest that you're a bit less confrontational in future. In particular, suggesting people are "whining" is inflammatory and rude to say the least.

That said, it's possible it could be an interesting discussion, if only those named (and the original poster) can steer clear of high emotions and discuss things in a rational and calm manner.

I hope future conversations will be a little less controversially placed.

Mutants are people too.

Debate over.

Quantium Frost-

"Debate Point #2: Edens " Final Solution "

In Fallout 3, the Enclave Remnants actually turned " Neutral/Good" and began to clean the wasteland of mutants, killing off ghouls, super muties, mutated humans, and passed out freaking pure water to people who took the " Genetic Compliance Test", which seemed pretty damn fair to me. What I love about Eden's plan is that it doesn't kill normal humans, it only kills mutated humans and creatures. "



My response-

In reference to the Godwin's Law reference.....Final Solution sounds rather familiar to me.

Spoilers: It's Nazis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution

Also, if you pay attention to the conversation with Eden it becomes abundantly clear that you qualify as mutated as does neigh everyone you've encountered up to this point. Certainly all of Megaton, Little Lamplight, and Rivet City at the very least.



QuantumFrost-

Problem: People whine too much about morality. Point to be take: The mean's meet the end.


My Reply-

I think you mean "The ends justify the means" which is to say "The positive consequences of the actions justify the negative nature of those actions"

The ends do not justify the means. Sorry. In my games, if an NPC has aligned him or herself with a cause, they will share that causes fate. If my character is of good karma, then the Enclave is doomed. Do I sound like I'm whining?

Maybe it's been a while since I played through that part, but my understanding's always been that "mutated," in the eyes of the Enclave (and by extension, their "final solution virus" stuff) is a pretty broad category of humanity. Sure, you could take a "Genetic Compliance Test," but just how many Wastelanders are we assuming passed that test? Pretty much everyone in the Wasteland, at this point, has been mutated to some degree, technically. My understanding of this virus's actual intention was that it would virtually eradicate all human life on the planet (except those - like the Enclave - inoculated to the virus,) clearing the way for those in the Vaults (who would be the only "pure strain" humans left alive - the rest of the populace having been exposed to constant radiation for a few generations now.)

Sure, it only kills those who have been mutated, but that's the catch - if everyone's been mutated, then that still kills everyone.

Besides - at best, we're talking about mass murder, here. A mutated human is, still a human. A Supermutant, even, may often be rather mean-spirited and not overly bright, but they're still sentient beings. It's not, technically, the most "moral" thing ever to slaughter the entire race in one fell swoop. Call it what you want, but it's certainly not moral.

(And I won't get into the "ends justify the means" thing, because that's a little close to real-world discussion; and thus probably kind of a slippery slope.)

Eden's charisma and convincing arguments are exactly what is so scary about the Enclave in the first place. I thought they did a real good job with your talk with Eden - he almost won me over, myself; and I already knew he was "the bad guy." It all sounds like a great plan until you realize "oh, he's talking about genocide with a biological weapon!"

The villains that I always find to be the most compelling don't consider themselves to be the "bad guys." The "bwah ha ha I'm so evil" sort of two-dimensional villain is nowhere near as scary as the guy who actually thinks he's doing the proper thing. That's Eden and Richardson. They "know," deep down, that what they're doing is saving humanity, saving the world. They aren't evil, they're heroes. Looking at your conversation with him in Fallout 3 from Eden's point of view - you're the misguided, but well-intentioned antagonist, as he sees it. It's because he's coming from a mindset of "I'm doing the right thing," that he magnanimously offers you a place in his army. (As he sees it, he's recruiting Storm Shadow to join the GI Joes. )

Of course, as far as relativistic morality is concerned, he's wrong. He might have the very best of intentions, but genocide is genocide. Killing entire races of sentient beings isn't moral. Justifications will always abound, but no - I don't find it "moral," in the true sense of the word.

As far as the "rest" of the Enclave? Yeah, some of them I'm sure are real swell guys. But even disregarding the whole "wipe out the rest of humanity" goal, their "better" goal still comes down to "subjugation of the entire world under our united rule." Which still doesn't strike me as the best of all possible worlds. Even the most moderate of Enclave leadership still want to enslave all the mutants and force the rest of the populace to submit to their rule (and they don't seem to be too picky about killing a bunch of people to do that.)

Alright, I don't think Eden's plan is morally good at all. The Lone Wanderer had a conversation with Eden that went something like this.

LW: Won't this kill pretty much everyone in the Wasteland?
Eden: Anyone or anything that has been exposed to the effects of mutation. You'll likely be immune, due to your upbringing in the vault...He goes to say that this will also kill everyone you became 'sympathetic' to in your travels.

Now note, not harmful mutations, mutations. Because they have lived two centuries in a radiation-basked desert, this is, essentially, all human beings who were born outside of a vault (including the Lone Wanderer) or the Enclave. In fact, this could INCLUDE some members of the Enclave if they weren't all born under the right conditions. 'Mutations' like a sixth toe are common, but not deadly, annomolies. This leaves a very small surviving population, not enough to actually replace the population lost and not have genetic problems, considering Vault 101 is the only vault with a viable surviving population, and the Overseer predicts genetic breakdown in 1-2 generations. It doesn't seem 'good' for the Enclave to kill the non-Feral ghouls simply because they have had severely bad luck. Not all ghouls eventually turn Feral, Carol has existed as a ghoul since the weeks just after the Great War. They won't reproduce to spread their severe brand of mutation, why kill needlessly? As shown in Broken Steel, the death is quite painful. It won't end the stream of Ghouls anyway, there is still lots of radiation. It'll just slaughter, although deformed, fully conscious and intelligent humans.

It also kills all irradiated creatures. Now, it may seem great to kill the mutant animals, but the problem is the non-mutant animals will never come back. All brahmin, mole rats, and even creatures that don't seem mutated like dogs and squirrels (because they are exposed to the outside air) would be dead. This eliminates all supplies of meat, and will probably kill the irradiated plants like Mutfruit too. Sure everyone could eat the vegetables that Li is making in Rivet City...but everyone who knew about her hydroponics work would be dead. Eden's scientists wouldn't be able to figure it out, they can't even figure out how to bypass a simple keypad. This leaves no food for very few people, nothing but whatever pre-war scavenge is left. There seems to be a lot of it, but probably only enough for another generation or so, and a lot of it is in very dangerous areas.

As for Super Mutants, the Lone Wanderer was able to discover their source in Vault 87, with this information the Brotherhood of Steel would be able to defeat them anyways. We don't even know if Super Mutants need much water, if any. We know they're immune to all diseases (which for all we know could INCLUDE Eden's modified FEV) and death by aging, who's to say they aren't immune to dehydration. Eden's new FEV destroys mutated creatures, but the Super Mutants have far more than regular radiation-caused mutations, they have a new DNA structure that never existed in the natural world. Where's the evidence this virus would be able to target that?

Now, in carrying out the plan, Eden may have eliminated mutated genes from the genetic stock, but in doing so he destroyed the Wasteland's population, their scientific progress, and their food supply. Also, because the radiation won't actually be all gone, the 'new' wasteland denizes will become 'exposed to mutation' soon enough, and the FEV will still be there to kill them too, thus in the long term Eden has accomplished nothing but total annihilation. Even Autumn, who despite coldly killing one of the Project Purity scientists, still has the humanity to know that eliminating the Capital Wasteland with FEV is not the intelligent decision.

*Slow Clap*

*Others join in*

*Standing Ovation*

*My hands hurt and I sit back down*