And with this, the 100th post in the thread, the amount of views has gone over 1,000.

Thank you, readers. The next chapter will come soon!

Woo. It took me a couple sittings to get through this. But here is the feedback you asked for, at long last.


Generic disclaimer: Please note that the following critique is an attempt at constructive criticisim, and is not meant to put down the writer or his/her work. It is meant to illuminate the writer's strengths and weaknesses, and the simple fact that it's so damned long should be testament to how much potential said writer obviously has. However, this critique is also the expression of a single poster's opinion, and should be taken with a grain of salt. If you don't agree with something I bring up, go ahead and ignore it. I will not be insulted if you do.

------------------------------------------------------------


Back when I was writing veritable essays worth of critiques, I would often say that there's no correct way to write. After one gets the basics of grammar and structure, "good writing" is entirely subjective. You're proof of that. You said in my thread that I am "far ahead of you"? but this is not true at all. While I was reading your work, I kept pausing over the deep, immersive quality of your writing. Honestly, you excel in parts of the craft that I can only aspire to right now. I'm not far ahead of you? in many ways, it's entirely the other way around.

So nya.

Your strongest point is, as mentioned above, your description. You have a particular poetic flair to your writing. Take the following passage, describing a butterfly:



This is a brilliant example of the way you take something simple and straightforward and mold it to add to the mood of the scene. The word choice is both precise and expressive, so that the sentence paints a vivid picture of imagery and emotion in the reader's mind.

Your mastery of words seems to get increasingly pronounced as the story goes on, and things get all twisted around, seemingly directed by the very mood that your words create. I just can't adequately express my amazement about this incomprehensible quality of your writing. You mentioned that you started as a poet, and all I can say is that I'm not surprised. Only poets are this in tune with the subtle connections between the mind and language.



I am ultimately a svcker for interesting character interaction. I loved your dialogue style: your conversation is lively, yet strewn with fascinating twists and well-placed nuances. For example, chapter 3 had me both laughing at and feeling for poor Daryen. Admittedly, I was a bit put off by the whole "love at first sight" deal at the end of that chapter, since I don't really believe in it, so the end of that particular chapter seemed a bit over the top. Then again, for a female, I am unnaturally cynical about such things.

Other than that, I have no real qualm with any of your characters. Daryen has a strong, believable development arc going. Each of the secondary characters is compelling in his or her own way, with his/her own interests and goals to keep the interpersonal conflict coming. Right now, I'm particularly interested in Divath Fyr's arc? but then, I confess I've always been fascinated by him as a character. Your handling of him raises no complaints from me, as it's always interesting to see other writers' interpretations.

Further, you have a skilled handle on intrigue and suspense. I noticed quite a few chapters where you used the age-old trick of leaving us with a one-liner that raises more questions than it answers. I think you mentioned in one of your posts that you take some of your influence from Stephen King? it shows, and wonderfully so.

I also like the way you handle magic. Personally, I'm not fond of limiting all magical effects to particular spells either. You happily hijack the ES magic system and make it into something intelligent and believable? a complex spectrum of ways to alter reality, instead of a limited list of spells. Good instincts, there. Difficult to predict, but that just heightens the mystical aspect of it. :goodjob:



Overall, your craft is solid. You have an excellent sense for drama and story structure, and no basic elements have been neglected. You've found a style that genuinely works, and that makes us equals. I have no right to offer you stylistic advice.

Of course, I'm going to do it anyway.



I know this sounds petty? but your story was difficult for me to get into. Once I got under the surface, it showed itself to be a fascinating read? but I don't know if I would have gotten that far if I hadn't already promised to look through your story.

Basically, my problem was that your introduction was a lengthy self-reflection, which just so happens to be one of my literary turn-offs. My personal preference is for stories that first pull people into a scene, and then reveal the character (usually through action and dialogue). It's part of the whole "show, don't tell" thing that I'm sure you've heard before. Generally, you're very good about that (as evidenced by my above gushing over your descriptive abilities). That's why I feel that being given a good chunk of Daryen's history and personality before the first scene doesn't do your story justice.

That is, like everything else in this post, personal opinion. I don't believe in pulling my punches in my critiques, but I also don't believe that there is any one correct way to write. So, just as you warned me while writing on mine? if my feedback doesn't fit your vision, then it is entirely understandable that you ignore it.



One of the first things I usually nitpick in my critiques is the mechanical proficiency (punctuation, grammar, etc). But, honestly, I have no complaint here. You have a smattering of typos, but that's to be expected when long chapters that are produced so rapidly. Calling you out on a couple typos would be very much calling the kettle black, anyway.

My Lore Alarm went off a couple times, but you confessed in your own posts that you were aware that the story didn't quite fit the core ES universe. Personally, when I write fanfiction, I try to keep it as accurate as I can, seeing an interesting intellectual challenge in melding my story as seamlessly into the world as possible. I seem to recall you mentioning in my thread that I followed the Oblivion plotline a bit too closely? this here is something of the opposite effect. Rewriting known canon in a shared universe is very risky, and can distance the reader from the story because of the unfamiliarity. Then again, that is a lesson I'm sure you don't need, as your decision to do so is entirely intentional. So that's enough of that.




I also have to admit that first person is my favorite pov? however, it can often be used very poorly. You didn't. You used it quite well, in fact, to draw us into a main character who might have otherwise been difficult to empathize with.

However, I do find it distracting when a first-person narrative is broken by a chapter or two of third-person. I like to imagine first-person narratives as stories being told by the narrator around a campfire or something equally clich?-yet-intimate. Therefore, breaking the pov is disruptive; how could a first-person narrator know exactly what happened on the other end of the continent? The beauty of first person is that the reader gets that person's?and only that person's?point of view. This allows for gaps in knowledge and errors in judgment. The reader is pulled along with the narrator, knowing only what they know and experiencing only what they experience. The reader gets to stand beside the narrator as he discovers the twists of his world and unwraps the mysteries.

Therefore, switching our pov between characters is, in my opinion, a poor use of the true potential of first person narration. Why not use third-person close instead? It still allows for that intimacy, but without jerking the camera around too much. It can be disorienting to find one's bearings after that.



While I'm on that topic? um? I feel the need, for the sake of my two X chromosomes, to mention chapter 6.

You're male, and you've bravely ventured to write a chapter from a female character's pov. This is one of the most uncomfortable sensations in writing?the author is constantly aware that if they slip up and give into a stereotype or--just as bad--overcompensate for a stereotype by incorrectly guessing the opposite, they could very well insult half their readership (although, statistically, the female readership of this forum is a lot less than that ). I speak from experience here; incorrectly characterizing a male is one of my greater worries.

I'm not trying to speak for all women, and I don't usually get up in arms about this stuff? but there was a certain element to Venera's pov that bothered me.

No, I don't mind the fact that she's sixy and knows it. I don't mind that she's a magical seductress; in fact, I find that part about her fascinating. Honestly, she's an awesome character.

It's just little blips in the narration that bugged me. For example:



I may be backwards and out of touch with my femininity? but I don't know any woman who is really that interested in her own briasts. Honestly, the two bustiest women I know are more likely to complain about the back trouble their mammaries cause than massage them in such a blatantly sixual manner. Maybe for the sake of their lovers, but rarely for their own sake.

Same goes for this passage:



Not "all women" are that manipulative, and a great deal of women don't actually care that much about men at all (and not just militant feminists and lisbians). As far as I know, the manipulation that guys sometimes perceive in women is, in most cases, entirely unintentional (with the exception of ladies like Venera ). I know you didn't mean for that passage to come out like that, but that's what it sounded like to me.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'm generally willing to dismiss this part of the narration as a part of Venera's character. She's confident enough with her own sixual prowess to make such broad claims about womankind. But still? be careful what you attribute to "all women." It's a natural part of human nature for people to be sensitive about their demographic being generalized by outsiders, even if the generalization isn't all that bad. I try my best to avoid such sweeping generalizations in my own writings, since I tend to favor male characters; I know it's one heck of a tightrope walk.

Just, you know, be careful with it. :shrug:



You suggested that I learn to draw more elaborate pictures with my words, bringing the story alive. Now I'm going to turn it back on you, and talk about saying more with less.

Take this internal monologue from the first chapter, in which the character's... erm? "indiscretions" are revealed.



The above could be rewritten to be shorter and punchier. For example, something like this may be a bit more tantalizing, yet carry more impact:



The key is to trust the reader to catch on and fill in the blanks themselves. They won't always do so? but when they do, their own sense of accomplishment will be greater for it. Sometimes, this means the sacrifice of detail. It's a give-and-take, and entirely depends on what your priorities are.

Heck, what I actually would have done was just write:



?and release the details in little clues throughout the rest of the chapter to keep the suspense of that particular revelation going.

Of course, this is entirely a stylistic choice. I've noticed that word density is a key difference between our styles: your style is very poetic, with lots of description and thick, heady paragraphs. My style is somewhat more conversational, with a lot of one-line paragraphs and colloquial language. Your style is designed to immerse readers into your world, while my style is better suited to propel readers through mine. This is something both of us are fairly comfortable with, so I don't know how applicable the above section really is to your writing.

Honestly, I think I'm just trying to make one-sided conversation. (That said, I definitely think there's plenty I can learn from you, so don't think this is an excuse for any shortcomings in my own works. )



Overall, I'd have to say that every word of praise you've received for this is entirely warranted, and you deserve many, many more views.

I hope that you get struck by a stroke of creativity and manage to break through your current block? but writing like this shouldn't be forced, so take all the time you need. Yeah, that sounds contradictory, but I'm sure it's deeply philosophical on some level.

First of all, BSparrow, my apologies for replying so late. Real life, you know...it has a way of hijacking the best laid plans. Well, I now have some time to think and reflect, and these are my reflections of your critique.

At the outset let me say that you DO know not only what but also how to critique. These two qualities are not always present in the same person: (all those who intend to give criticism, please take note) and even when they are, it is rare to find these two qualities present ALL the time - sometimes even the most well intentioned of critics slip up. I have looked over your comments in many other threads, and I am not only pleasantly surprised but also deeply admiring of the fact that your 'touch' has always been sure and light. Forever may it remain so!

And having digested (I hope!) the brain food you've kindly laid down for me to feast on, here are my thoughts on your critique

Show, don't tell

Absolutely. Verbal diarrhea is a fault of mine, and what's worse is that I even know the cure for that fault - a review and rewrite. And so, as I remarked in my critique of your story, the Physician has failed to heal himself, and any and all who would like to remark on this are free to do so. Note to self: kick thyself mentally before posting, so that thee shalt remember to review, ruminate, and rewrite. And when and wherever possible, do it again, for a double distillate or more of the story.

Rewriting known canon

Precooked versus Pristine, or almost pristine? Here, let me confess that I am an inveterate inventor IRL - and although I know I should have done much better to go along with the pre-cooked meal, I have decided to gamble in inventing something mostly new. And yes, I know that the risks are greater that way.

Still, "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?". I for one would rather be an overambitious failure than someone who walked the road well travelled. That's not to say others - especially you - who walk along the paved path are less than me: after all, walking down paved paths takes you to your destination faster, and the destination as well as the journey are equally important. I hope to have it all - a faster and a more intriguing journey by using the road less travelled - but taking the road less travelled can lead you straight into a bog. That is the risk. At least I took it with open eyes.

First to third person PoV change

Yes, that was also part of the road less travelled. I am experimenting with ideas that flow into my mind as I write - and I know that not all ideas will work out: that is the nature of the beast. But that having been said, I still think I will persevere with this technique a bit longer. I hope to deliberately jar the reader into seeing things in a new way, and perhaps this will work. Or not, too. Still, one never knows till one tries, n'est ce-pas?

Venera's sixual narcissism and manipulativeness

Hmmm....that was one comment I was not expecting...

There's a saying "If the reader doesn't get it, it's not the reader's fault"! So that means it is no one's fault but my own.

I certainly wasn't trying to stay that Vernera was - ahem, pardon my French - an exhibitionist with a pormstar (gulp, sorry mods, this word was necessary) DD cup proportioned ...er... female upper body. What I was trying to say was that Venera (at that stage in the story!) was an arrogant and manipulative - erm - beeyitch, *rolls and ducks away* - who knows absolutely how to use her body in combination with her powerful mind to manipulate men into doing what she wants. And her manipulation is far more powerful, and subtle, than just the run of the mill blatant sixpot manipulation we see from sixploitative women in the entertainment and even worse industries that exist today...she knows well that not all male six thoughts are sixual, and even sixual male thoughts come in a myriad of forms and urges. Which is why she uses her own special variety of chameleon magic to be "all women to all men".

I was hoping that you would pick this up and comment on it, but my writing seems to have missed the point. When Venera says that "all women are manipulative" she is thinking of all smart and savvy women - in other words, women like her - I suspect Venera at this point in her existence views all other types of men AND women as "losers" and sneers at them.

Say more with less.

As you've so rightly pointed out, you push readers through your world and I pull them into it.

That having been said, though, your point about torrents of words spelling out all the setting is valid...and as I said before, it does point to a weakness of my craft. The answer is, as I said before, not to be lazy, but to review and re-review again and again before posting. I shall do so, although habits of verbosity will not be cured with a single dose of elbow grease.

And finally, thank you, dear sparrow, for the long flight you have flown from your world to mine, and for the wisdom that you have carried in your beak to place on my shores.

Your detail and descriptions are riveting, when you describe actions, I can visualize them, and the characters come to life as you describe them! Awesome writing D.Foxy!

You girls have shamed me into restarting this story.

I now have the outline of the next two chapters...will post it when it is fleshed out.


Thanks for the encouragement!


Foxy

Yes Foxy, please do! I want to see where you'll go next.

I'd like to just comment on chapter 19 - I know it was a while ago, but I've been rereading this story, and this chapter embodied a lot of the feelings I get from your writing. The reflective style, the present tense, the philosophical and descriptive narrative... I just love love love it. It is so effective. I think it's important every so often to rise above your own story and offer a viewpoint from an omniscient observer. It takes people out of the characters for a while and gives them a chance to view everything in an objective, separate way. I particularly like your choice to name this anonymous observer as a god - that we ourselves get to play god, and play is exactly the right word. You approach your theoretical divine as if they were an ancient Greek deity - capricious, acting on whim, amused by the pettiness of humanity. It's a cold view, but it's very enjoyable to to take up that mantle for a little while before delving back into the characters' brains and getting close to them again.

Hope your fleshing out has been productive Godspeed Foxy!

I hate to press for your to work on this because it may cut into your Foxy time with Maxical, but I (gulp) heartily cast my vote for you to continue this story!!

Eeeyargh! What with trying to satisfy the my second-best loved moderator on this Forum, Doyenne Leydenne, by trying to complete not one but FOUR simultaneous chapters on 'of Blades, Fights, and Assassins', and at the same time trying to keep up with the FIVE stories I am following on this forum, trying to juggle SIX projects I have going on IRL, and trying to avoid committing any of the SEVEN deadly sins in the process....


...


:ahhh:


...but sometime, somewhere, in the future this story WILL arise again. I promise.


And my two best friends forever, Rumple and Malxi, a moist-eyed smile and thank you from me!!!

Ha, that is what happens when you are not born with the XX chromosome.
Women can handle 75 things at once. :dance:

I, here, must add my chorus to the other voices. More, please.......

A poet with your talent should never be silent. :ninja:

:woot: When ever you're ready.

A nice, slow pace of writing. I like that. Most stories on this forum have way too quick paces.

Reading this, I am willing to guess you age, Foxy. You sound like a person who has seen what dreams can do to people, especially when one does not manage to reach them.

You make the Mages Guild a quite different place than most people here, including myself. Yours is a much darker place, the mages ambitious powerhungry figures. Delicious.

Suzerainty? Wow, never heard of that one before. Need to look it up.

In a single chapter, you have managed to portray a very enchanting little game of power, Foxy. I am spellbound and successfully hooked. You can definitely expect more comments from me. :wave:

Ah, now the plot begins to form... And a good one it is! :clap:


I believe there is a year missing here.


I think a verb must be missing somewhere in here, but I could be wrong.

Maybe like this:
Now all the Great Houses know. And so does every Guild and it seems every damned adventurer in the whole of Tamriel knows the story about these 'pearls' that are the 'fountain of youth'!

Also, I spotted a couple of periods missing, usually just before the quote mark.

I don't want to be a pain about this so if you don't want me to check your typing, Foxy, I can quit doing that. I will still read the story, though. You can't keep me from doing that!