Except most, if not all, of the bandits in Morrowind don't belong to any faction, and the only people who seems to be dealing with them is the Sixth House.

It has nothing to do with production. Taking Rome, Constantinopole, Londen in the Imperial times, they consume gigantic amounts of foregein products.



Might aswell start with the politicians feuding nobles and work from there on to the other aspect because unlike Oblivion things aren't so easy to separate in discrete units.

The Houses were full the politics and nobles. One example would be the Redorans attempt to prove that House Hlaalu was skimming off in the Caldera Mine. Like wise Hlaalu is equally at Redorans throat in trying to get very profitable Imperial Grants from the East Empire Company. Add some slander back and forth and a duel challenge or two and you're set.

Then there is Duke Vedam Dren, he doesn't do much but he is there as the Imperial administrator. Which adds detail.

Moving on to Economics.

The economical situation was especially dire for House Redoran who were at a financially low point with little income from their settlements. Their traditional values and related lack of economical wits prevented them at the start from trading allot with the Empire but they're catching on now.

Hlaalu being more open minded on the other hand was flourishing because of it. Yet his also earned them the reputation of being the dishonorable.

The Telvani aren't particularly poor but they have the luxury of being able to trade with the Daedra, which his always profitable. This also gives them their independence to give the rest of the world the middle finger and do what they like. Hence this house has no shortage of odd ball characters and can practice it's amoral.

Now that we've had the broad lines, which clearly show the relation between the wellfare of the Houses and their attitudes. We're moving on to the details of the individual merchants.

For example take Ra'Viir he was selling Demon and Devil weapons marketing them as geunine Daedric. But did you know that this character has more then one angle? He also has a love interest with the Alchemist in the local guild of mages? Now before you mention how this is only one merchant. Show me one in Oblivion that has more then one angle attached.

Moving on to the thugs.

The obvious two candidates are the Guild of Thieves and the Cammona Tong and yes they are in conflict with each other. Both out of idealistic anti-empire feelings and pure business sense. Of course there is yet another political figure, the commander of the fort who promised get results. A few members of the Tong ended up dead soon after. Verry suspicious and not very lawfull. Yet on the other side the Tong manages to worm their way in to the Empire backed fighters guild and harry the thieves guild with it.

As you can see everything here fits into the larger perspective of an Imperial occupied Morrowind. So now we're onto Religion.

I'll be short about that, if you didn't trip over the influence of the Tribunal, their shrines, ancestral burial tombs, their holy books, their priests, their knightly orders, the ghost fence, you haven't been playing Morrowind. It was all pervasive and I'd have to write twice as much as I already have to cover that all.

What is there in Cyrodiil but a template based cathedral and way shrines? Where does it influence the live of the people?

Back to the details. Local drinks, local flowers, local mushrooms, local armor, everything was described some where and not just by a guide but every NPC that ought to have such knowledge. As always Morrowind being a different from your generic RPG it had it's own plants and resulting drinks, it's own insects and thus the people made armor based of those ideas.

Now before you take this all into quotes and comment on each. Don't forget they're all part of the larger context. Show me that in Cyrodiil where something exists outsides it's quests line.



Not they. A few people who studied it have the knowledge how to assemble Dwemer components. They can't recreate their materials, when something goes broken they have to get a replacement from a Dwemer ruin.



The game being and RPG and interactive storytelling being the important point of an RPG, world building is an important part of this because it defines the playing field. As such culture is a priority.



You ever asked yourself how Morrowind with it's horrible mechanics got so much acclaim? There is nothing good about it except the world and the freedom it offers.



You're confusing alien with bugs and reptiles. Go and fetch a copy of the Invisibles, that is alien. Go read Transmetropolitan. Or even better read the first Edition Pocket Guide to the Empire. It shows Nine different aliens. Daggerfall could be considered the generic part of the world if it weren't for it's Machiavellian politics.

You're also confusing "the world" with the landscape. The landscape was generated but the world wasn't.

Finally you're confusing expansion and elaboration of lore with inconsistency. Take out on fact and replace it with a whole culture. You can't consider that inconstancy.



Yet it's amazing how everything from the past contradicts it and paints a far more interesting image.



You were the one that suggested the Daedra wasted everything they had on one man, while countering that Ocato couldn't be killed by any ordinary person. I might as well suggest that if the devs were making the Cyrodiilic equivalent of Ceasar who marched his centurion into the Senate, that centurion is the player.



So does that mean you'll stop being the apologist for Oblivions flaws? Realize what it could have been? Discuss things normally like every other person rather then making posts with your opinion and no good arguments to back them? That'd be a shame because I'm just starting to enjoy this.



Nobody looks particularly fearful that if they don't worship the Nine the hordes from Oblivion will invade. Try again, maybe you can flesh it out some more.

Loot is Morrowind isn't leveled. And my artful nonsense and apologism (better than yours, I like to think) was referring to only that.

The smuggler caves are mostly filled with their merchandise- that is, goods covered by Imperial monopolies that have been given to the state-run joint stock companies. The phat loot is justified by lore, for Christ's sake! This attention to detail allows us to forgive the unrealistic aspects necessary to gameplay. Oblivion lacks this, and doesn't even try. Bandits all have the same name, abilities, and level of light armor and bladed weapon. All marauders have the same name, abilities, and level of heavy armor and blunt weapon. I am in deadly earnest when I say that World of Warcraft has more inspired, interesting enemies than this (I am a former player, my family and friends have multiple lvl 70s) and they simply upscale a level 3 wolf and change the color scheme, making it a level 40 dire wolf.

Now, do you see the disparity here? I think you do, but you will likely attempt to justify it with a tangentially related qualifying statement of similar scope.

Even the minor villages in Morrowind like Seyda Neen, Hla Oad, Gnaar Mok, and Dagon Fel had a point. The settlements in Oblivion seemed to be just....there for an associated quest.

Like planned communist enclaves and suburban sprawl subdivisions, they have several stilted distinctions laid on an identical template.

Personally, I think Oblivion should have had armour from Morrowind like Bonemold armor or the Colovian Fur helm. That helm was amazing!!!

Bonemeld definitely WOULDN'T have fit, but Colovian Fur Helms and Morrowind-style legion armor would've been nice.

rats. check your til in-box.

Morrowind was seperated into openly warring factions. It would be downright unrealistic to show the heart of the Empire in the middle of a perpetual civil war.

But there's no Nolus Atrius or Sadrith Mora Magistrate for when you don't get your Hospitality Papers. Wait, not getting hospitality papers doesn't have any consequences at all, despite everybody in town saying that there are. And Cyrodiil still had all of the counts and Chancellor Ocato.


Cyrodiil is the heart of the Empire; they get rich off of Morrowind, trading in the Imperial City and Anvil, the wine industry in Skingrad, and tax everybody in the Empire. Cyrodiil doesn't have the same economic woes that different factions in Morrowind has, being the heart of the Empire.

However, the Fighters Guild has found itself on hard times because they have competition, and there were rumors that it could lose its Imperial Charter. And there has been the whole tax situation in the Waterfront District, a district where most are too poor to afford taxes, to try and lure the Gray Fox out of hiding.


For starters, take Thoronir who was apparently supplied by unknown means, later revealed to be through grave robbing. Another example is Jensine, who is apparently in charge of a merchant alliance in the Imperial City, of which several other merchants (and later Thoronir himself) are a part of.


And as was said in Morrowind, in Cyrodiil, the Thieves Guild is the dominant crime organization, even if they operate under a guise of a myth. There is apparently tension between the Guild and Hieronymus Lex and the Gray Fox, as the Gray Fox, supposedly a mythical figure who's been around for generations now, as the Gray Fox botched an attempt to arrest Armand Christophe. This makes the guard consider him a "pompous fool," because none of the other guards, or his superior, Commander Phillida, believe that the Thieves Guild or its legendary leader, actually exist.


Yet nowhere did they mention how somebody becomes an Ordinator, nor did they detail worship any more than praying to shrines and standing around selling spells. In Oblivion, although religion is less detailed, the citizens will often visit the chapels daily.


Because the dialogue in Oblivion was voiced, there was less room to fill the game up with small bits of lore. As for drinks, flowers, mushrooms (Russula and Coprinus are each an actual mushroom genus, even if the species are fictional), the vast majority of it is familiar enough that it doesn't need extra explaining. And either way, a lot of that lore in Morrowind was pretty hard to find if you didn't know where to look. And the armor, more or less, was scaled so that there wouldn't be heavy or light armor imbalances like in Morrowind, where you either are using Dwemer or Chitin, or you know where to find Ebony or Glass, which are about 3-5 times better than their predecessor. Medium Armor remedied that problem, but it ran out of steam at higher levels, with one exception.


Well, for starters, there is the Orum Gang in Cheydinhal, and their connection with the Camonna Tong of which no quest is involved with. There is that Redguard who claims to be Blademaster Owyn's daughter, and trains so she cah prove it, and the corresponding letter. There is the Uderfrykte Matron, although that could be considered an Easter Egg. And of course, there are the mysterious Runestones and Doomstones.


As for technology, there's no direct evidence that Frostcrag is Dwemer tech.

Yet Oblivion and it's "lore butchering" got even more acclaim, because mechanics and realism are more important than lore and information. A copy of Hamlet may be a great play, but it's not much of a computer game.


And Oblivion still had Land Dreughs, Daedroths, Clannfears, and Scamps. Sure, they may not all be native, but they're still there.

You don't even know how "good" it would have been depicted had they based it on the first PGE. Besides, it's not like you or anyone else here dispute certain parts of the PGE, such as Talos's rise to glory.

But then again, if the world were as static as you claimed, then maybe that's how Cyrodiil would have been.



Probably the same likelyhood that you'll stop being an apologist for Morrowind and realize what it could have been. But that is where we are at an impasse and will never see eye-to-eye.

And to Paws, since I appear to have posted my limit of quotes:

It may come as a shock to you, but the loot in Morrowind IS leveled. I've checked it, and I've experienced it. At higher levels, an average smuggler cave seems to contain enough wealth to supply an entire town, in the form of Dwemer items, potions, booze, enchanted items, and Grand Soul Gems. And given that they're smugglers, they probably have a lot of it shipped to other places. Like Cyrodiil, for instance. And while I would have liked to see more diversity in Oblivion's bandits, I can only imagine how frustrating it was to craft each and every bandit when they're just going to get killed a few seconds after you run into them, then disappear forever. And Oblivion had more important priorities.

But again, this conversation is going nowhere. I posted because proweler deserves an answer and Paws deserves to know that loot in MW is leveled. We each rationalize the negative aspects of the game we're standing up for, bash the negative aspects of the other person's game, and it won't lead us anywhere. It has degenerated into a thread about how bad Oblivion was, and I know you guys won't concede to a mere Diviner. It's simply become the battlefield for a never-ending arguement. This arguement could go on forever, so I should tell you that I don't have plans to keep chomping at the bait. I'm not conceding my beliefs, but arguing endlessly on something not on topic is pointless. If it makes you feel any better, get in the last word, because frankly, this won't get us anywhere, and I simply am putting a stop to it. But please don't stoop to attacking me, it just makes the poster look like a jerk.

The Houses were not openly warring. War of Assassins, but open war is illegal, hence the Morag Tong.

Again, the Cyrodiil we saw in Oblivion did not look for feel like the richest city on the continent. I bet have you read that single paragraph of the 1ST PGE that describes Cyrodiil, the city? Why can't you see, that Cyrodiil was supposed to be like that? And it should be like that still.

CP:

You point out various elements not directly related to a quest but you ignore the most obvious events in the setting. The Oblivion crisis and the dead of the Emperor. These are world shaking events yet nobody in Cyrodiil does as much as flinch.

You don't mention how this affect the Thieves, the Mages or the Fighters Guild. Not surprising because it doesn't. I wish I could say the same about the Nobility in Cyrodiil but it simply doesn't exist. You also don't mention how these groups interact, but then again, they don't. The guild of Thieves tried for a second but their characterization of Traven was so far off the mark that I doubt they were even talking to each other.

So considering you neglect to comment on Oblivions lack of such over arching connections, but go for the small details I'm not going to bother with discussing these in detail because by your ommision you seem to admit that Oblivion does indeed not have any of these.

I'm also not going to bother to reply to any comments on my suggestions of that Oblivion could have done when are countered as being impossible by something that has been done in Oblivion. As mentioned earlier the arguments that something is impossible because the game does it one way when making this game, doesn't hold water.

Neither will I comment on anything that relates to gameplay as we're talking about the world building. Which frankly said doesn't leave anything sensible to comment on.

edit:

Just add that I'd like to be called a PGE or Redgaurd apologist because I've been beating you over the head with examples from it. It is after all the primary source of what Cyrodiil should have been before it was stripped of it's glory.

Hell, no one outside the Mages Guild seems to notice or care about the feud with Necromancers. At least people in the Imperial City are aware of the Thieves Guild escapades.......

One final thing though, something that needs to be pointed out.

Not once has anyone else suggested that the part in the first PGE about Tiber Septim NOT killing Cuhlecain could be true. Whenever I mention the story given on the PGE, somebody always has to claim that the first PGE is biased propoganda, yet the rest of it outside that sentence must be true. :rolleyes:

So, the PGE is biased propaganda, and as such we should never have expected a magnificent Imperial Center, but this mediocre one?

Nothing is either one or the other. If you follow the Arcturian Heresy, the Breton assassin was Tiber Septim who appeared from the flames with his own throat gashed so that he could safely take up the throne instead of Ysmir who doubled for him all that time. It doesn't contradict but corroborates the idea that Tiber murdered Chulecain.

But more importantly, that section of the PGE paints Tiber Septim as the rising from the flames and ashes of Chulecain, suggesting that the Emperor is like the phoenix. One dies and another is born from his ashes. As much else in the PGE it legitimizes Tiber Septims claims to the throne. The creation of this image as Tiber Septim as the right full ruler -rather then the words and facts used to create it- is propaganda.

Like wise the description of the Imperial City creates the image of a City better then what it is. The sights are bound to be magnificent as it is a massive city but I doubt everything is gold and jeweled. Still that doesn't take away from the descriptions of bridges so large that people live on them or the existence the islands and waterways. Nor are the other descriptions of the people and their ways.

That is the one thing I don't understand. According to his profile on UESP he was born in Atmora and named Talos. It also says on that profile that he spent his youth in Skyrim. Then in The Arcturian Heresy it says he was a Breton from Alcaire. Which is true? Is the Atmora bit propaganda to make the Nords feel a comradery so as to gain them as allies?

It is assumed that Wulfharth was born in Atmora and spent his youth in Skyrim, thus General Talos was born in High Rock. (Still a Nord, however, hence the name Hjalti and the fact that the legend of Thu'um is believed)

Though that particular line of propaganda is very common, consider that the Nordic Talos is the dragon Ysmir. The Arcturian Heresey refers to Wulfharth as Ysmir quite frequently, IIRC.

Proweler: I was under the impression that the Heresy attributed Talos' Voice to Ysmir completely. I doubted this since the Heresy seems overly-focused on the importance of Ysmir, but still.

paw-prints-in-the-mud:

I didn't mean to counter that impression. Even though it wasn't his voice, Tiber still had to walk out the fire with his throat slashed though or it'd be odd when he would no longer shout people down. Though YR attributes even the voice to fiction.

For some reason I keep thinking of Sancre Tor though. Maybe tomorrow it's late now.

BohrIII:

You're right. Tiber Septim comes from Alclair High Rock or some area on the border regions of High Rock and Skyrim. Mostly on the account of his brother with a very Bretonic name and the lack of any Atmoran immigrants since somewhere in the first Era.

...which conflicts with the Heresy. I just re-read it, and it is certainly false in many places.

But brain cramp... YR?

The elven commentator to the Pocket Guide, 1st ed.

"Whenever you encounter a piece of underlined text, that is a comment. When the title reads "YR", it's a comment by our mysterious Elf"

http://www.imperial-library.info/pge/

That altmer guy making "commentaries" on the PGE.

Ah yes. With all that, the physical text must have been a thing to see.

Best $60 I ever spent on Ebay. It has a a lot of great sketches too, also supposedly done by "YR." Like the one of Guri Nail-Face, Lord of Skerd (he has a nail in his face).