I'm not a big fan of VATS.
Not only does it break immersion in the heat of battle, but after the novelty wore off, it just started to feel like cheating (imo).
So now I never use it, which makes cool perks like Sniper, Commando and gunslinger useless.

In order to fix these, I tried changing the function "Calculate To Hit Chance (x1.25)" to "Calculate Gun Spread (x.75)".
I believed that instead of adding a plus 25% chance of hitting in VATS, this should decrease the spread by 25%, thus increasing the chance to hit when using the defined weapon.

Unfortunately, it doesnt seem to have any noticeable difference on the spread.

Any ideas what I am doing wrong, and/or suggestions on how to fix it?

To be honest, I'd have to try to create mods before I give any real suggestions, however since I would be very interested in this mod I would like to suggest that you try it with a shotgun first. Since shotguns have very high spreads you should be able to see if the difference is more noticeable.

Actually, I tested it out with a sniper rifle shooting cans at around 450' (9600 game units) as part of a realistic balistics mod I am working on.
At that range even slight variances in spread (shown by movement of the reticle) is very noticeable, or in this case, not.

Non-VATS sniper gameplay can be quite fun.

Firstly, get (or make yourself) a mod that disables Auto-Aim. For perks, Better Criticals is the best option and get your small guns skill, stealth skill and agility up high. A Chinese Stealth Suit is a must. Then it's a simple matter of sneaking up, lining up the target's body part in the crosshair and pulling the trigger. Btw, you can get a kill shooting off limbs as well as the head. This is usefull for mireluks when they have their back to you as you can't get a clear shot of their head.

This mod http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4480 has a much better looking rifle than the standard one in FO3. This also has a silenced version for ultra stealthy kills.

I don't think that's what he's talking about dude. From what I understand he wants to make it so that taking the Sniper Perk increases sniper accuracy outside of VATs.

@OP: Hm, well like I said, I'm not yet experienced with mods so I have nothing else, but if I come across anything I'll let you know.

That was kind of the point of my post. With what I suggested, you don't need a perk for shooting targets at extreme range with a sniper rifle. In other words, if you can see it, you can kill it, no matter how small it appears.

I'll explain.
When auto-aim is disabled, a weapon will shoot it's projectiles according to the geometry of the weapon mesh. For a vanilla sniper rifle (and most other vanilla weapon meshes), this results in bullets impacting about 1/3 of the way down from the centre to the edge of the scope view (the Krigos SVD's bullets hit very close to the centre). Most custom weapon meshes seem to hit the middle (kudos to them ). FO3 doesn't seem to have much ballistic drop off either (bullets impacting lower that where they were aimed at long range).

Finally, there the Min Spread (0.00) and Spread (1.00) values (which is what he probably means) for a sniper rifle. At weapon skill 90+, crouched and in scope view, you'll have a spread of 0.00 (none at all). Thus the bullet will hit whatever you're aiming at no matter what the range.

But it would be cool if he could choose to make that the perk. Is there a way to make what you said work only when you have the Sniper Perk? Because I think the point isn't to make snipers more accurate on their own, it's to make the perk more useful. Maybe I'm misunderstanding though...

Could someone please explain what auto-aim actually does? I have heard about mods that turn it off - but I don't know what I'm getting rid of exactly.

What does it do in-game - and what does it mean to turn it off?

Note that so called "auto-aim remover" don't actually disable it, rather it's a fudge to break it so it stops working. Solely because there's no option in-game to disable it.

What it does (when functioning correctly) is guide your shots to the targeting reticule. In the case of the vanilla sniper rifle, in stead of shooting low, the bullets correctly hit where the reticule aimed at and adjusted randomly according to the spread values.

I think I hard of a perk set that increased your scope steadiness with sniper rifles, dont know though.

There is a very popular mod that adds a ton of perks (I forget the name, sorry). Some of them help out snipers a lot, like one that reduces scope sway, and added damage while stationary. Try searching for it on the Nexus.

Thanks Qilue, but I was mainly interested in the perk issue, specifically why the "CalculateGunSpread" function didnt seem to work in my revised Siniper perk.

Actually I already have Auto aim disabled, but the issue for me is that when sniping at long distances gun spread can make an incredible difference. A miniscule sway at 100 feet can result in being a yard off the mark at long ranges. As I mentioned, I have tweaked the ballistics to be much closer to realistic in terms of accuracy and shot drop, and calibrated the scope (using a TMR reticle) to allow for Mil based range finding and shot adjustment. It works well, even out to ranges where the target is only visible through the scope.
In this pic I am sighting on a guy about 12000 game units (570') away. He isn't visible with the naked eye.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/VonGrantoven/PSG-570.jpg
Through the sight though, he looks like this. Notice that at that range I have to aim about 2.3 mils high in order to ensure a headshot.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff292/VonGrantoven/Reticle-570.jpg
The problem is that the game uses the same ballistics for all weapons, so if you dial in the spread numbers to give sniper rifles reasonable accuracy, then this makes all weapons a bit too accurate at all levels.
One way to have my cake and eat it to is to use a perks that applies only to 2-hand rifles.
Oh, and at that range in the game a silencer is useless, as the range is more than twice the NPCs max detection distance

When Nexus repair the link you should check out Shooter by Pelinor.
here's an excerpt from the read me:

Changes virtually all aspects of shooting.
Auto-aim no longer has any significant influence over bullets.
Projectiles will shoot where the weapon is pointed. (Not 100%, but close enough.)
Weapon spread has been removed, except for shotguns and other spread-shot weapons.
Weapon weight and how easy it is to hold, as well as character strength, affect aiming.
Aiming and crouching are more important for accurate shots.
Moving while shooting will greatly reduce accuracy.
Aim will become more impaired the longer you run, and return to normal while walking or sitting still. (Heavier weapons have more impact on this.)
Recoil enlarges shot group the longer you fire. (Returns to normal after shooting, so fire short bursts. Energy weapons have no recoil penalty.)
Recoil is based on real-world parameters and calculations for each bullet; based on bullet weight, velocity, charge, and weight of weapon.
Wearing any Power Armor greatly reduces recoil and improves aiming ability.
Projectiles are much faster. (Bullet speed is close to that of the real-world counterparts, based on effect range.)
Bullets are affected by gravity. (So aim a little higher for longer shots.)
Grenades are also faster, to real-world speeds, and bounce less.
NPCs are slightly more accurate.
Tracers have been removed for non-FOOK projecitles. (Optional, included projectile mesh controls tracer.)
Includes add-on plugins for DLC weapons and FOOK2 Beta.

Actually, I think I have the ballistics elements dialed in quite nicely.

The main purpose of this thread is changing the combat (sniper, commando, gunslinger) perks to be valid for non-vats users.

There is an indirect benefit for non-VATS users. Not taking those perks frees up slots for others, like Black Widow, Intense Training, Demolition Expert, Cyborg and a few others that are quite usefull.

Ah, I think you are still missing the point of this thread.
The purpose is not to ignore those perks, but to find a way to make them useful for non-VATS users.

For even mid-level characters long range shooting (such as at the ranges shown in the screenshots above), is a major challenge due to the spread-induced shot drift.
This is actually pretty realistic. Being a good shooter with a rifle or handgun does not mean you are a good long range shooter.
Its a whole different set of skills involving gauging range, reading wind, learning to lead a moving target, and dozens of other factors.

I see a remade Sniper perk for non-VATS use as representing the learning of these elements that will result in increased ability to hit your target.

However, it seems that the function I think should do this doesn't actually work.
Also, it seems that even the VATS version may be nerfed too, seeing there are a number of mods purporting to fix this.

I do get the point, and my view is what you're proposing is unnecessary.

At 90+ small guns while crouched (sneaking), there is no sway or spread using a sniper rifle (or any other weapon with Min Spread 0.00) even at extreme range (max view distance). Referencing your screenshot, I see that you're standing. Try the same thing while crouched (sneaking).

Ergo, you want to make a mod to force the use of a perk you don't need with non-VATS sniping.

Ha ha, well I certainly wouldn't see any use for a perk like this if my SG skill was 90+!
I was mainly looking at this as an asset for long gunners in the 50-70 range, and plan to lower the level requirements accordingly. Even with my significantly more accurate FGunSpread values, gun sway for mid level shooters at ranges around that shown in the screenshot above (which is crouched btw), could result in a shot being more than a yard off target.

Actually, I'm surprised that you can seem so sure that what I'm proposing is unnecessary without knowing the game setup in which I envision using it.
I'm certainly not trying to force the use of anything on anybody.

In any case, though I don't grudge anyone the right to state their views, I would prefer to focus on the issue I raised in my first post

Would it be possible to make the sniper perk increase your small arms skill only while using a weapon with a scope?

That would increase accuracy for low and medium level snipers, think of it as a little shortcut to improved sniping that eventually looses it's value as you level up and learn it "the hard way".


I haven't looked in the GECK for a long while now so I don't know if it would work, but it's a thought.

Yup, that is the way I saw it. You can get the sniper rifle fairly early in Minefield, but its largely useless at very long range for characters with low to mid SG skills. A perk like this could be a valuable boost to those wishing to follow the path of the long gun.

I don't know if you could set it to only work when using a scope, but it can be set to kick in only when using the 2-hand rifles (sniper, hunting, etc). This means it wouldnt apply to SMGs, pistols or assault rifles.

Or maybe increase the small arms skill when your standing completely still. Just an idea :shrug: I mean, I don't always use a scoped weapon for sniping.