Alright, this is something about the modding community as a whole I utterly don't get: the need to "fix" exploits that are NOT the result of a bug in the game. Drinking potions comes to mind. In vanilla Morrowind, as we all should know, you can drink as many potions as you want. This is not a glitch, the game was designed that way. The problem most people have with this is that it allows the player to fortify themselves to ridiculous extremes. And I have to say...

...What is wrong with that?

If I want to fortify my own intelligence and the game lets me, it is -not- up to you to "fix" that aspect of gameplay. It is not "broken". Really, there's no difference between that and typing "tgm". If it's a matter of "curbing them damned dirty cheaters" (lolwut) why not take away the ability to open the console while you're at it?

"But Lattice..." I can hear you thinking... "...if it's there people will do it!" No. No they won't, unless they're the type with no self control, and in THAT case they'll open the console and toggle god mode on anyway.

Am I the only one who doesn't get it?

Well although do see what you are getting at with this... i must add that any "fixes" are optional.

I personally had very little self control when i started playing morrowind again.
Try as i might i would get impatient/bored/curious at somepoint and use one of the xploits in the original game, and then overdo it and get completly bored and stop playing.

So the way i see it, having fixes that you can download and add is a sort of insurance that i most definatly won't be bad! and ruin my gaming experience.


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As a final note... i'm currently playing without any said fixes to exploits, and playing fine without using the exploits.
So i would have to agree at least in part with what your saying... have some self control.

Here's a little bit of wisdom I've heard:

Well put

I remember fondly how on the XBox I worked out how to use potions to boost intelligence high enough to enchant well, so that's not a tweak I would use. Still, I understand "fixing" exploits and loopholes to give the game more "balance.". For some people it is the difference between leaving the cookies on the table and putting them in a tin in the cupboard - it assists self control.

Huh. Okay, that I can kind of understand. Though it does take quite a bit of effort to (going back to the alchemy thing) brew and drink 100 or so potions. A lot of these exploits I wouldn't have even known about or thought of to try had someone not brought them up.

I just see so many people asking for or making "exploit nerfers" I wondered about the motivation behind it. :shrug:

I myself certainly am against any type of caps. Any artificial limitation is a major turn off for me. I would like to see some fundamental mechanics at core. I get my inspiration from real life. Even magicka as an energy should obey physic rules. And there is something called side effects. Always leave a print of negative effects, that can be ignored totally on low usage and add it up for overuse. Make destruction quick, restoration slow and sometimes unrecoverable. Like real life. Certainly, I won't want to change the original gameplay as much to break it, just want to add more to equation. My mindset on this is not driven by exploiters. I am thinking the actual normal gameplay by normal gamers. In the process maybe these would "fix" those exploits. There is room for some complexity that can enhance gameplay so this action oriented guy(me) can be more happy. Think first and second laws of thermodynamics. They fix every exploit. Apply them from ecology to economics. Set the rules and set it loose, add an AI director to prevent certain crises. There are a lot of ways for fate to go around player and enhance the game for him/her, good or bad.

I am sure there could be these so called "fixes" that I would be against completely and even tweaks I strongly disagree but I still think from a moddability perspective people deserve gameplay "tweaks" of any kind and their opinions should be respected. I see it as a wording problem. Also if there could be a lay out in a way so mods can fix make these tweaks reality other than making certain people busy, that would be nice. I am pretty sure Oblivion doesn't suffer from any of this, they seem to be able to change everything in complex ways.

No - you are not the only one - I get puzzled by it as well - I'm not sure if you can cheat in Morrowind - who are you cheating against? If it was a multiplayer game though I would be wanting all the loopholes closed.

However like you I think - well that was the way the game was designed and am generally happy with vanilla style gameplay including leveling up - I don't swing towards mods that make the game easier - eg unlimited funds for NPCs or the other way - limiting what potions can do to me in fact i like playing the mini game of seeing how powerful a fortify intelligence potion I can make , Though come to think of the one mod I really like is when your magicka revives itself like fatigue - although if I choose an Atronach birthsign it doesn't matter.

Still those who do create the 'self-suppression' style mods do seem to be fairly popular in the download department so obviously some really get it

Well, if you ask me, rule two is good, but the rest of that only applies if you're modding for yourself.
1) If you don't care what people think, don't release it.
2) If it gets released, it's public property.
3) If you get feedback, be glad someone's interested enough to have an opinion.


Personally, I don't think most exploits need to be "fixed" per se. For example, I don't see a need to be rid of Creeper and the TMM. However, some people do like these, the same as some people like penalties for taking damage, tougher enemies, or adding in the need to do extra things to survive...in fact, NoM can be surprisingly fun, for a mod that threatens you with stat penalties and death if you don't play by its rules. However, no one is going to head over to your house and install mods you don't want on your system (if they do, I'm pretty sure you're within your rights to smack them). So it doesn't really hurt anyone. My only objection comes when people choose to bundle their "fix" with a mod that does something else, and force you to accept their vision wholesale, or pass up all the mod has to offer. One notable, for me at least, is the famous "Sri's Alchemy". It adds some new ingredients, and makes some useful potions easier to make...but it also removes restocking ingredients from inventories, and eliminates the creation of Fortify Intelligence potions. They add Fortify Skill for the Int-based magics, but what if I needed to pick a lock? So, it gets a pass from me. Great mod. Lots of people use it. But for my drakes it isn't worth the trade off.

Well said. And a good example. There are others.

But then .... #Rule 2 gets applied, as you say.

The further complication with that sort of bundling is the conflicts and cancellations that arise (or the occasional missing head or body part).
For instance, I add a mod 'A' because I want the discrete effect x that it adds to my game. I add another mod 'B' because it provides something else, a heads and hair replacer perhaps. I fire up the game and mod 'A' does not function. Why? Because I eventually find, after several hours of reading readmes, hidden down somewhere in the detail of the readme for mod 'B', that the author also changed y and z which have nothing to do with heads and a lot to do with that modder's gameplay preference and which just happens to utterly bork mod 'A'. Of course modder 'B' can build the mod as he or she wishes. I just find it an increasing challenge to sort out all that 'shtuff'.

"Mods should be modular". - you may quote me. ;o)

Well, my point of view is that even if it is not a "glitch", it doesn't mean that it is not a bad game design decision. Just because it is in the game, doesn't automatically make it OK. Games should have rules and limits, and it shouldn't be up to the player to "limit" themselves.

The fact of the matter is, you are not playing against other human opponents, you are playing against the computer. Now, the current system with drinking 100000000 intelligence potions would be OK, if only the computer could do it too. But alas, it cannot, and thus we have a broken game because of bad game design decisions. The player and the computer are not on an even playing field. The player has nuclear bombs, and the computer has a sling shot.

This is why I choose to use mods that fix this "problem", as you put it, because I don't want the choice to be there in the first place.

As they say, if you don't like it, you don't have to use it.

This.

If you want to cheat, you're only cheating yourself, this is truly a "victim-less crime". If you use any of these "exploits", you lose. You lose the fun, you lose the game, you lose the experience. I've played with god-mode and consoling everything in and out at whim, and it totally kills the game. It's just no fun. I've never even tried the intelligence glitch because I'd rather have the challenge of playing it. Being able to play in the world and play by its rules (whatever they may be), and play a character, is more fun than walking from Seyda Neen to Red Mountain through the console.

Now, there are some exploits that should be patched. If a quest is bugged to repeatedly give you rewards, I can understand patching that (yeah, you could avoid getting it again, but that's a bug, and bugs are ok to fix). But these are, anymore (with the MPP and MCP) farther and fewer between than ever before, and are really almost a non-issue.

I have no problem avoiding the few remaining exploits, and I know my game is more enjoyable for it. The people who feel the need to fix these... I can't explain why. Maybe they don't have the self-control to avoid cheating. Who knows, but it's certainly easy enough for most of us, and without cheats, the game is pretty fun.



I think it's been clearly established that "bad game design" is merely an opinion, and certainly not one that particularly needs brought back up in this thread. Refer to rules #1 and 2.

In response to the original question, I use limiting mods because I think it adds more challenge to the game -- by the time I'd discovered a lot of the exploits (intentional or unintentional), I figured that they detracted from the original game in the way I wanted to play it. I think it's nice every once in a while to be able to slip into another world, and that world should make sense to me -- the fortify intelligence brews aren't in my game simply because I never use them. I replaced 'em with something else, to off-balance the fact that ash-yams, bloat, and alchemy no longer served a purpose in my vanilla game. They became placeholders to avoid, so I filled them with something useful *to me.* Like it's been mentioned, some people find enjoyment in using intelligence brews to boost undervalued features, or make god-characters (who here was NEVER tempted to make themselves a god? ), which is just fine by me. It's just not the way I wanted to play this particular character.

rule one applies. nothing is stopping you from opening up the CS and removing the elements you dont like. rule one applies anywhere, and just as much as rule two. rule three is great as well. i take issue with two of your three counterpoints.

just because i dont care what you think, does not mean that i do not think someone out there on the internet will have similar tastes and enjoy my work as is. if they dont like my work, no one can stop them from opening up the CS and changing it to suit them.

just because i release it does most definitely not make it public property. i have full control. i can disallow comments, disallow reupload, disallow use in another mod, disallow versions that you've changed from being uploaded, and in all honesty i could legally sell my work. if you dont obey my wishes in these areas, and i was a jerk with money, i could take legal action. my code/art/what have you is mine, just because i upload it does not make it yours.

as for the OP, because people think the game is too easy, even with the difficulty slider all the way up. it's the modder's prerogative to make the mods he wants. if you dont like it, dont use it.

I disagree. Morrowind is a roleplaying game. Roleplaying is all about self-imposed limits.

Basically, you want to get into a discussion about the difference between glitches and poor game design.

I have a bit of a problem with that definition of roleplaying, to be honest. Sure, self-imposed limits are definitely important aspects of the roleplaying experience, but if it was physically possible for a powerhungry mage to become a god through the use of alchemy, do you really think he would refrain from doing so?
Sure, I can easily pretend that godhood through alchemy is impossible, but having an actual limit there as opposed to just a mental one really helps me get immersed. Therefore, I quite like using mods that remove/disable/prevent the use/abuse of exploits. Playing when they are all clearly visible and easy to abuse is kind of like trying to sleep with a fly buzzing around in your room, IMO.

Somehow I missed this. #1 and 3 are perfectly valid, but 2 is illegal. If I release a piece of code, it is released under whatever license terms I set for it. Bethesda has no say and cannot force it into the public domain. They can't even do that with ESM/ESP files, and those are the only ones they might have some legal pull over. Any plot, quest design, dialog, book text, art, models, sounds, or code (script or utility) are completely the property of their authors.

Now, I've spoken out against selfish modders many times ("gollum modders"), often to the displeasure of some well-known but rude people (most of whom, interestingly, are no longer here). I am completely against not sharing your work; if not for the community and what we share, we'd still be scratching around on cave walls making boobie mods like the Oblivion folk. But on the other hand, I can't sit quiet and allow modder's rights to be taken away.

Every modder owns what they create, but it's better for us all if they're willing to share.



I agree. Roleplaying is about fitting how you play to what you're playing. If you're playing a one-armed, illiterate assassin, you won't be using a shield and reading to pass the time. Since the game can't possibly foresee every RP decision you might make (not even D&D or GURPS could), it's up to you. Besides, it's really all in your head, so why are hard rules necessary? Imaginary rules for the game you're playing seem like they'd be just fine.

Once I stopped laughing about the reference to cup size obsessed oblivion mods I tried to puzzle out what you are saying here - what is you definition of a selfish modder? Is this a tease modder who just shows some screenshots but never pulls out the real work - or is the (insert race here as I've only heard it as Indian before) Gift Giver modder who releases a mod - then later decides to take it back - or is it the modder who tries to lock down their mod with a you must never touch this as a resource in any way whatsoever even posting screenshots needs my approval type of readme?

I'm just unsure what you are referring to?

Wrye once wrote that he left the MW modding community because they didn't have a more 'community' approach to modding - he felt mods should be picked up and reworked on by others in the community to make them better - http://wryemusings.com/Cathedral%20vs.%20Parlor.html

So I live in hope Hrnchamd will one day incorporate Wrye Mash into the MCP knowing that Wrye would approve

Is that something you would disapprove of?




Agree - so if I want to stack potions because I can then I don't see how that can be viewed as cheating it's just my Breton mage binge drinking again - what I really want for roleplaying purposes is a mod that tells me I have drunk over 2 Litres of potions and need to find a bathroom quick - or I start getting adverse effects from stacking - blurred vision or an annoying heat beating sound when i've obviously over pumped myself - I would enjoy the rolepaly of that

Morrowind is a roleplaying game. A computer game. Computer games are about going up against an opposing intelligence, artificial or human. An intelligence which operates within a set of rules, as does the player. The nature and quality of these rules is part of what makes a game exciting. Balancing these rules is what makes a game challenging. If there are no rules there is no game. If the rules are unbalanced the game becomes boring.

Some people like challenging and exciting games. I am one of these people. To me mods that balance the game, get rid of exploits, improve the enemy AI and make the game harder are very important mods. Especially in a game like morrowind, which is fundamentally unbalanced and easy these mods become a necessity. At least for me.

I fully understand the opposing view. So people who don't agree with me can play different mods. Mods that add other stuff that they like as opposed to stuff I like.


Also I partly agree with the opposing view. I like freedom in my game, after all it is a roleplaying game. But too much freedom is bad for me. It ruins my game.

I think that's its a personal choice though it is interesting hearing why people prefer different styles.


I agree with this, personally. I've found it a problem in my own mods. When designing new weapons or devices that do things outside of the normal mechanics it lessens the immersion for me when I use these things but the AI can't and writing new AI for new weapons has proven to be involved.

Stress on this word.

The latter two. I won't name names, but there have been many, many modders who feel they can create a work, release it, then either pull it from circulation the first time they have a bad day or never let anyone else use it and won't provide any clues as to how it's made. I've referred to them as "Gollum modders" before, because they take a "mine, my precious!" attitude to their work. In the end, that ends up only hurting the community.

We have some modders who will allow their work to be re-used, or adapted, or will at least teach others what they know. In that way, they help everyone and we all benefit, more than just by having a single mod (the old "give a man a fish, or teach him to fish" proverb). On the other hand, we have these individuals who take more pride in what they've made and blessed us with than in who they've helped.

If someone makes one mod with great scripts and deletes the script text and refuses to explain them, what have we gained? One mod. If they leave the text to let people look at it and help people figure it out, what have we gained? A technique or an idea or a little bit more knowledge for everyone. Certainly something far more valuable and most likey something that will out-live them in the community. Above all, they've contributed to making this a community, making this somewhere where we can say "look what we can do together" instead of "look what I did, look at me".


I think the cathedral vs parlor concept was around long before Wrye wrote that, but perhaps in another context (programming has/had a cathedral vs market concept, IIRC). http://www.ite.poly.edu/chapel_printable.htm explains some of why an open, friendly community is better and can go farther than any closed system.

However, we have a toe a fine line between protecting modder's rights and going over-board. As with any situations, all extremes tend to be destructive. Using a completely closed, traditional copyright hurts the community by locking away a piece of content or an idea. Placing a work in the public domain often opens it for abuse, or for-profit use, neither of which are good. Some balance is required (I release much of my work under the Creative Commons NC-BY-SA license, meaning it may be modified but not for commercial use, give basic credit, and share as I shared).

No reason to re-invent the wheel every time we need one, just copy an existing wheel design and get to work on the original part of your car. If everyone had to build their own wheels, we'd still be driving horses and carts.


Nope, that's the beauty of things being open. We can all do our parts to create the best possible. If you like a mod to add side-effects to potion chugging, you can do it, and I can come along and tweak it and explain to people what I changed (or with permission, release my version, with credit to you). Or, I can not use that mod, but I could still look at the GMSTs you changed or scripts you wrote and learn more about modding.

Treating our work like corporate secrets or hidden knowledge will leave us all scrabbling to catch up. No matter the details, we all benefit from an open community, the bazaar or parlor concept. As Newton said, "If I have seen further it is only by standing on the shoulders of giants," and I think that applies to almost all of us here today. We wouldn't be where we are now as a community, we wouldn't still be around or have gotten nearly this far, without the people before us teaching and sharing their knowledge. We, in turn, have a responsibility to teach and share with anyone and everyone we can.

Truer words were never spoken!




KF

i agree wholeheartedly. then again, i support linux and the GNU. i welcome folks to improve upon my work (just so long as they dont upload it to PES, but that's another story, heh)

just didnt want anyone to get the wrong idea from my last post. i support free and open source software (and mods of course) but at the end of the day, my work is my own.