http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Mods.Detail&id=8276

Ever felt that for law breaking gang of thieves and robbers, finding the Thieves guild was as easy as walking into a random building? You practically get asked to join before you even realise its a thieves den! And those phony background responses? Purlease. This mod aims to correct that. They're not as hard to find and join as in Oblivion, but it'll take a little more care and winning of their trust to sign up now.

Features

Realistic individual cover 'backgrounds' for thieves in the South Wall and Dirty Muriel's. (But only if you are not a member of the guild.)
The Rat in the Pot I left untouched as LGNPC already does a great job of this.

Selecting the 'Thieves Guild' topic will not immediately get the response of 'Well hey, you should join us', even if you have the requirements - npcs must now have a disposition of 65+ as well. There is actually a stock dialogue response that they use instead - but I bet you've never seen it before.

Guild Masterminds will not initiate dialogue with you, a stranger, by saying 'Maybe you'd like to join the Thieves Guild'? Again, you'll need a disposition of 65+ to get this greeting.

If you are a member of the Legion, and wearing legion armour, Thieves will give you no information. Additionally, if you are a member of House Hlaalu, Thieves in Balmora will give you no information. Similarly, Thieves in Sadrith Mora will not talk to you if you are a member of House Telvanni.

Selecting the topic 'someone in particular' in Balmora or Sadrith Mora will no longer give you the name and location of a thieves guild leader. Maybe Beth's idea was that they were well-known criminals but the guards didn't have any evidence on them or somesuch, but I prefer it this way.


Any feedback/ suggested enhancements would be great!

VD

I think 50 disposition is a little low; that's basically saying anyone that don't dislike, or anyone they like at least a neutral amount or better... I think something like 60 disposition would be much better; still solidly in the middle of the 0-100 range, but high enough to show that they like you and trust you at least a decent amount.

I agree that the disposition should be a little higher. But other than that this sounds like a great mod for gameplay realism.

Thanks :goodjob:

Intriguing. Bluntly though, this won't be of much use to me: My Character is already the Master Thief However, once I start a new game, I'll be sure to install this and see the differences it makes in-game.
Will you by any chance be doing anything for Characters that are in the thieves guild?

So a person dressed up as a full Imperial soldier could bribe any thief and get responses about the guild? You may want to tag for clothing/armor. Your character should look the part if they come seeking admission. Just a thought.

Is this mod compatible with Balathustrius' masterful "Den of Eniquity"?

There's a global, WearingLegionUni, that toggles whenever you equip or remove a Legion cuirass - you could use that to filter the dialogue responses. I think the Disposition requirement should be raised higher, to around 75 or so. These people are under threat from both law enforcement and the Camonna Tong - they're not going to talk about the Thieves' Guild to anyone they don't know and trust.

Interesting responses! I wanted to strike a balance between realism and changing it too radically from Vanilla Morrowind. So the general consensus is a higher disposition and filters for certain factions? Remember at the moments its 50 AND basic skill requirements (although I think even my level 1 mage characters 'had what they were looking for').

I think it's alright. They aren't meant to be easy to find after all Also, just a question: Would any NPC's with the thief Class added by other mods be affected?

I'm liking the idea of this! :thumbsup: Will pick this up when the tweaks are made.

I like this concept very much. It is unnatural that members of a secret criminal organization should be so eager to talk about their business with a stranger. Well done, and I will add my wish that other Thieve Guildhalls receive similar treatment in the future.

As for filtering dialog for the player's membership in other factions that might be considered 'at odds' with the Thieves Guild, that can be accomplished with some difficulty and would make for excellent role-playing, but it will limit the appeal of the mod to purists. Some players do not like to have their activities restricted (there are even players that like to join all three Great Houses even though it makes no role-playing sense). However as a niche mod, you might get away with such a feature. I think Helena's suggestion of filtering by the value stored in WearingLegionUni is a good start. Certainly the player could remove the Legion cuirass and circumvent the filters, but that could be though of as going undercover to investigate the Thieves Guild. As for allowing members of the Imperial Legion and other law-abiding factions to join the Thieves Guild, that is a matter you need to carefully consider since it will determine what sort of players will ultimately use your mod.

Until you treat other Thieves Guildhalls, there will be holes in your 'coverage' that will allow the player to learn more than he/she should about that secret organization. You might consider creating some new 'generic dialog' filtered for the Thieves Guild that will plug holes and accommodate Thieves Guild NPCs added by other mods.

Congratulations on the release.

I'd say that there should be *more* possible factors on who can join, but mostly none being terminal. Legion armor, as mentioned, could be taken down after NPC's sarcastic rebuff, a Legion member might have to prove his loyalty by doing some additional quests, etc. Having a criminal record would certainly be an advantage . Preferably monitored by a script ensuring that the record was earned by a long series of small thefts and not by a single murder (that would be a good tribute to Daggerfall, where Thieves Guild membership was by invitation only, after an amount of pickpockets). Might also take into consideration carrying moonsugar/skooma as an additional (not necessary) bonus.

Good ideas, keep them coming!

At the moment, I'm thinking about;

Upping disposition requirements to 65.
Adding catches for barter/training.
Adding catches for khajiit versions of Thief topics.
Adding catches for Houses in specific areas;
Hlaalu for Balmora, Telvanni in Sadrith Mora - but only if the player has risen at least a few ranks.
Catches for if the player is wearing legion armour or if they are a high rank in the legion.
Adding suggestions that 'there are ways to help with that' if the player has a low bounty or moon sugar.

I'm also thinking of maybe rolling this and the camonna tong dialogue mod into one? I like the idea of having just one dialogue project to work on. I have other miniature pet peeves I want to correct too - like how every Dunmer has the topic 'Nerevarine' - think maybe THAT obscure ashlander legend might be important later on?? Slaves need alot more greetings, currently about 70 npcs share the two lines 'what are you doing here?' and 'do you have the key to these bracers?'. I also want to change topics like services depending on who is saying them - guilds referring to themselves in third person kinda grates on me. The funniest one is asking the Mages Guild in Balmora about 'someone in particular', and they struggle to remember who their leader is. Tsk. Anyway, updates soon....

Updated to 1.1!

Additions/ Changes include;

Upped disposition requirement to 65.
Added catches for barter/training, requirements and advancement.

If you are a member of the Legion, and wearing legion armour, Thieves will give you no information (through different responses). Additionally, if you are a member of House Hlaalu, Thieves in Balmora will give you no information. Similarly, Thieves in Sadrith Mora will not talk to you if you are a member of House Telvanni.

Sounds good. Will give it a go when I get back to MW.

Thanks
:)

Sounds good! :thumbsup: What if you are a Legion member but not wearing armor? Will they still give you info?

I missed this earlier! Great idea, and thanks for sharing this :goodjob:

My $.02 on factions etc... I see no reason why Legion members shouldn't be able to join at all (there is such a thing as police corruption you know! - and being a Legion member would be a good cover, don't you think?) - but I definitely like the idea of no info (and especially no join-up dialogue) given while you're not a Thieves' Guild member and you're in uniform. Pity you can't get info on items the player *didn't* get caught stealing (since that would be a better qualification than a criminal record).

Sorry to ask a kinda predictable question, but is this compatible with the Service Requirements mod? (Which also makes changes to the Thieves Guild... I've read the descriptions for both but I'm still not entirely sure. :huh: )

Btw, great idea for a mod! The visibility & openness of the TG always did seem a bit ridiculous somehow, especially given that they supposedly had deadly enemies (the C. Tong) elsewhere.

I'm working on an update to this that adds lots more random dialogue to guild members and more varied greeting responses to players with a bounty. Been a little inspired by the d+d thieves cant, and I'm trying to translate that into Morrowind. Any ideas or aspects you guys would like to see?

Glad to hear you are planning on expanding this mod...the more reality, the better!!!!

Right now, I can't think of anything to add...but will keep you in mind.

Hey, this may seem a little out there, but I do have a small idea for this. Since Ahnassi is Thieves Guild, perhaps you could work the ever popular unisixing of her quest into the game. Also, I think it would be interesting to put her at a slightly higher rank, and set things up so that after a certain point in her quest you can actually be admitted into the Guild by her. Maybe even set up the Halfway Tavern as a proper guild base? There's Ahnassi, New-Shoes, Ladia, Nelos, and sometimes Nels Llendo. With so many thieves around, it seems odd that there's no actual guild missions there.

New update! 1.2 includes;

10 new responses for the 'little secret' topic if you are a member of the guild
10 responses for the 'Thieves Guild' topic if you are a member of the guild
Added many unique, class based greetings to npcs if you have a bounty of over 100 but less than 1000 - essentially a thief. Mostly relates to shopkeepers who will still trade but tell you to watch yourself.
Slightly altered 'Camonna Tong' topic response if you talk to a fellow guild member. It was in the game before, but never showed up due to incorrect dialogue ordering.

Kefke - I can definately see myself adding a few special missions to the Halfway Tavern in later updates..

I'm betting it was because Bethesda wanted the player to find the thieves guild easily because kids as young as 8 play this game and they want to make it kid-friendly and simple to navigate.


Von Djangos, are you planning to make the Halfway Tavern a TG hideout? I just want to know because Pelagiad Expanded already has a set location for the TG and I want to know if this will conflict. We won't be touching Ahnassi, though. We'll leave LGNPC to do that.

Update...YES!!!!!

I am looking forward to future versions with missions/quests!