No they would die out due to inbreeding because without PC interaction the lockdown wouldn't be lifted or due to in-fighting because Hardin would eventually have had a gutful leading his supporters against Mcnamara. for either outcome there wouldn't be enough soldiers to carry on the lines and eventually inbreeding would take palce because of their ridgid policies.




I don't know what you are going on about here, the Lyon's pride is the elite fighting force of the EBoS, just like the rangers for the NCR. They are there because they get things done. Just like when supporting GNR, Elder lyon's sent them because he knew they could get the job done. It was only by chance they ran into the PC and they never said we need your help but that he could tag along.

They are not that stupid to stay there forever. They would eventually either move out due to lack of supplies or go back home and state the Mission was a Failure or just die due to their stupidity if it went that low. If they reclaimed Helios One, then they can easily report back home stating they got a motherload, send back reinforcement, or even establish a New Headquarter.


And there the catch. I would not refer to them as Eastern BOS but Lyon's Pride simply because they are in the leadership of Lyons. I know the Lyon's Pride is their elite fighting force but Lyon's Pride fit the bill as the true name of the overall faction of the supposes "BOS".

I wish it was a reference to MWBoS but it's not. Its about the East Coast BoS. Chapters would be small groups that branched out. The Western BoS are not a chapter they are the BoS. The main body of Brotherhood. Veronica talks about a small civil war. Western BoS did not have a war with those they sent East to Follow the Super Mutant armies moving east after the death of the Master. Those on the convoy were those that saw the need for new blood but they did what they were asked, knowing there was a great chance the airship convoy would end in disaster. Western BoS in my theory sent them hoping the ships would crash killing all the dissenters without firing a shot.

MWBoS went on to form an orginization (theorizing) alot larger then the Western BoS. Still they are not like Lyons or Veronica. Like you said they like crucifying people that get in their way. They have forced labour camps (deathcamps).

Lyons pride always dies in my end game battle. Sarah only lives cuz she's immortal. Some "elite squad" they can't even stand up to wasteland critters too (broken steel)

Every time these debates come up I always ask why the brotherhood can't change after centuries. Original Fallout fans always scream nostalgia back as if it's a real answer, it's not.
However lets look at the reasons for the change:
This is years after F2, which is enough time for changes in leadership.
The Brotherhood in F2 was dwindling away and needed the chosen one to fight their battles for them.
The Brotherhood in F3 went to the Pitt where they carried out their usual mission while watching people suffering unlike anything in the first two fallouts.
This was without any other elders to remind them to stick to the basic tennants of the code.
The Brotherhood in F3 got pinned down and immediately started losing knights to the mutants.
Without any back up and with the mutants constantly dragging people off to recouperate their losses the Brotherhood would lose through attrition.
Helping wastelanders survive and getting fresh initiates went hand in hand with not having every wastelander become another mutant.
Even with the situation many brotherhood still chose to just hoard tech and left with alot of good technology further weakening the Brotherhood.

Now for the reasons why the brotherhood should remain the same:
Uhh... um, hmm... It's different so I hate it.


The original Fallout fans at this point strawman their way to arguments such as having the brotherhood grab tech and run which doesn't justify trekking the country at all and just not having the brotherhood which was never going to happen since like it or not, they are the face of Fallout.
I would have personally preferred a ghoul army fighting the mutants since it would make more sense through the lore but lore doesn't sell games marketing does. Black Isle couldn't market their way out of a paperbag which is why the series collapsed and why the original fans are now a vocal minority against a horde of F3 fans.

Some "original Fallout fans" enjoyed FO3, and understand why the East Coast BOS is different from the West Coast BOS, in fact, the Outcast BOS is the East Coast equivalent of the original BOS,

That is essentailly the death of that chapter then, because they are no more. they are once more the main BoS, not the Mojave chapter.


It's not Elder lyon's pride though, it is Sarah's. The Elder has no say in who is apart of the pride (although in extreme cases I guess he would) Sarah formed it hence why she 'Handpicks everyone' The Elder uses it as a tool just like the rangers of the NCR are used. The pride wasn't even thought up until Sarah was old enough to fight and prove her combat prowess.


and i've seen many rangers taken down by legionaries, so some force they turned out to be . It's the engine and the AI's fault.

I am used to Brotherhood changing. Its almost a religious orginization. The Vault calls them techno-religious. Like many religions you will have different groups splintering off based on how they view their "holy" books. Brotherhood have the Codex. First there was the Western BoS, no outsiders, don't care about controlling other factions and they want tech!. Many within the BoS saw the need to have new blood. Western BoS sent them on a mission that would mostlikely end in disaster. It did and they became the MWBoS, they let in new blood but only at the lowest ranks and don't give them the best stuff. They still want tech but they see the need to control those around them. Pretty ruthless to boot. Then Lyons saw the need to protect tech in DC and helped people and let in outsiders and then there are the Outcasts. Change is slow and unwelcome with the Western BoS.

My answer is simply that the Brotherhood of Steel does not really have to changes at all at their standpoint of thing. Even at the time of New Vegas, they are still regarded as one of the tops in technology, knowledge, and weaponry. If there any changes in faction is needed, the Dev might as well make a new faction in correspond to their ideal rather than just pick out an old faction and make them "good" guys or "bad" guys whether the plots needed. At best, I can see only some adaptation of the BOS with the influence outside of their ideals, but still retains their way of live. At worst, they goes Steel Plague if push to the boundary of near wipe of the NCR. That would be an interesting route.

As for Fallout 2, the BOS just set up outpost all over the place in observation of the Enclave. The quest it self is optional and not needed but at the same time, it is pretty much the "Glow" mission of Fallout 1. Assuming that the Chosen One is really the descended of the fame Vault Dweller, they just sent the Chosen One to steal the plans rather than just do it themselves. More of an "efficiency" of the BOS part rather than needing help or that they are "dwindling". Beside, about two other factions within San Francisco wanted the said plans, so why not.

And as for the Lyon's Pride position, they might as well do what the Midwestern BOS did and charges the resident for supplies and other means if the Lyon's Pride plans to stay there. They cannot do all that fighting with the Mutant with all the "goodness" and free "protection" in the Elder Lyon's view of things. I am even surprises Lyon's Pride still exist in DC for 20 years.

As for ya "Uhh... um, hmm... It's different so I hate it." along with the next sentence is most likely the fact that such tempering of the Lyon's Pride is not needed and the BOS could in fact retain they overall looks in regards in their stay with DC, to again, something along the line with how Midwestern BOS deal with their stay if its that extreme. The way Lyon's Pride handle, they can't just keep fighting for free or in the worst case they are in right now, becoming Water Merchant minus the Merchant part. Sooner or later, giving out free water would likely cause an unfixiable damage to their own organization in term of men, morale, and already broken objective if they keep giving out free water.

Oh, and the Black Isle Studios were laid off before Interplay bankrupt themselves. Interplay wanted to make Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel 2 but needed resource to make it work. They did this by laiding off the Black Isle, which by that time were already almost done with Van Buren, by 95% done. Interplay put in resource for Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel 2 but is still short on resource which (along with other things that was going wrong with Interplay) result in the bankruptcy of Interplay. By than the Black Isle Studios join up/form Obsidian Entertainment.


Mojave BOS or the Western BOS? Mojave would just get out of there and reconnect with the Western BOS. In Western case, they are pretty much fighting the NCR and still giving them a hard time. The fact that they are still fighting and was able to sent an expeditionary force at the same time pretty say that they are still able to last a good amount of decades before being completely wipe out. I would not be surprises if the West Coast BOS goes Steel Plague on us.


It might as well be called the Lyon's Pride by than. Though the only other name I can come up with is Wannabe, but Lyon's Pride is a bit "nicer" save the fact that is what mention half the time I was there in the Citadel. And again, like I said before, they are all under the leadership if Lyon, whether its the old man or his daughter after the old man dies.

But the entire EBOS isn't just Lyon's pride, its one mere squad. Calling the entire organisation Lyons Pride is about as accurate as calling the entire US armed forces the Marines.

Or perhaps the WBoS were desparate back when they first sent the chapter there, to get HELIOS One and the Archimedies project working and would then migrate to the Mojave and regroup there to give the NCR a good kicking and hence why Elder Elijah was given specific orders not to leave it, but without Helios the expedition was a lost cause and by then there probably was no BoS to go back to.(just speculation mind you, I know it's probably not true)



The thing is it seems like that because the PC's time with the Brotherhood is in conjunction with the Lyon's Pride, we don't see how the others operate because we aren't sent on ops for them or see them in action. Such as Knight Artemis he seems a lot less caring of the wastelanders but still fights for them. We only see what 'combat life' is like for a sole squad.

Ya got that part right; that is definitely one of the reason why such expeditionary force exist in the first place. The fact their recruiting per year goes from 1-5 > X a year to flat out zero when they are at war with NCR, they need something to offset their forces to give them the advantage. Originally, it was Hoover Dam that was their prime target. Of course, NCR got there first and they stumble upon Helios One. We all know that it went downhill from there. I would take it that if the West Coast BOS are that desperate, they would have all migrated towards New Vegas rather than sending a squadron. The ending still state that the War still goes on with the NCR back at California, show that they are still a force to reckon with.


Again, I am quite aware of all the fact that the Lyon's Pride is already the name of a squadron, but in all cases, I cannot view those guys as BOS. This is the same case, if any, with the Outcast as well. I see it that it makes sense that rather than just saying the said squadron is call the Lyon's Pride, the overall East Coast BOS is named Lyon's Pride simply because they are in the leadership of Lyons. That is how I called them and ya don't have to agree with it. That is how I view it.

I don't think the WBoS are all that powerful at all anymore, they are probably reproducing like there is no tomorrow but by the time the children come of age the NCR will be to powerful to defeat



That's okay that's your opinion, I was just trying to point out that the rest of the EBoS shouldn't just be called Lyon's Pride

NCR isn't defeatable now, but that doesn't mean WBoS doesn't stand a chance. If they got a clue, they'd be on the same side. But NCR is too big.

But the WBoS are to ridgid to adapt and won't want to join NCR imo and they'll always play second fiddle in how the West is shaped, already the NCR has made huge 'improvements' in shaping it how they want it.