By most standards what the Vault Dweller, the Chosen One and the Lone Wanderer accomplish is heroic, and I'm talking about the canonical endings. You can end Fallout games how you want it, but the canonical resolutions are that the Vault Dweller ends the threat of Master, the Chosen One the Enclave and the Lone Wanderer activates the purifier.

Their backgrounds are also very similar; they are all young and from small, isolated communities with little knowledge of the world outside their small worlds, but with the potential for greatness. The Vault Dweller and the Chosen One also have a very believable motivation: saving their communities. This in turn transitions believably into a larger and even more heroic motivation of saving whole regions. The Lone Wanderer is driven by his motivation to find his father and after his father's death to fulfill his dream and ideals.

Once the Courier has found who shot him and what he was shot for, why does he continue to help any of the main factions? What does he accomplish or gain by choosing a side in a conflict that could cost him his life?



Something else that seems to have been completely sidestepped is why the Courier is not trying to find out who he is. It seems like that would be a pretty powerful urge for most people, and it seems pretty easy to resolve given his connection with the Mojave Express and the area. He was hired to deliver the chip from Primm to the Strip. The odds of him being a local are pretty high.

The premise of the Courier seems especially weak compared with all 3 previous Fallout game protagonists.

You're kind of right... The Courier has no background, although he is most likely a local, he has no motivation unless SPOILER ALERT- you decide to hear Benny out, he escapes and House tells you where he is-SPOILER ALERT other than that ABSOULTELY no motivation

I believe for the purposes of New Vegas, the devs wanted the motivation to stem from the player, not from the character. I believe that's part of the reason we were given a character with a relatively blank slate. So the real question is, why were YOU motivated to take the actions you took which led to a unique conclusion of the game?

As a role-player, I love this, because it gives me an opportunity to write a unique back-story for each new character I roll.

I agree with the OP. This will come across as a rant, but I liked NV - I just thought it wasn't as solid or as memorable a game as F03.

My main gripe with NV is that it doesn't really have a plot - it has goal posts you have to clear - the game doesn't really give you any reason to clear them as far as character motivation - it just assumes you want to keep on playing the game or that you'll make up a motivation as you go. This was done to give you creative freedom, but at the cost of annihilating any connection you have to your character or the arc of the story.

Consider these plot holes (craters really):

(1) Caesar invites you to his camp and gives you the platinum chip. He does so even if you've killed 100s of legionnaires before you came to his camp. He has no reason to trust you, yet he does - he doesn't even check to make sure you destroyed the bunker under the camp when your done - relying on a vibration he felt. He didn't send one of the 100s of men around his camp to do this job b/c he says he would have to kill them afterwards - even though he doesn't seem to value the lives of his soldiers at all in any other instance (he likes his legate specifically b/c he doesn't care about the lives of his own men).

(2) Caesar has no motivation to fight with the NCR. If you ask him why he's doing so, he gives you a vague explanation - "the Hegelian dialectic" - which really just means he has no motivation other than he is philosophically opposed to their system of governance. Basically - "I fight them b/c I want to - not because I hope to gain something by wasting all my resources in doing so." He is the foil to the NCR only b/c the game needed a foil to them. He could have been given a concrete motivation ("I want the dam's power to reroute it to my capitol in Flagstaff") but he isn't.

(3) House needlessly toys around with you using Victor. Victor (House really) could have told you that Benny shot you for the platinum chip and he's now in the Tops the moment you woke up. Instead he has to lamely string you along for absolutely no reason. House wants the chip back now, why waste time sending you to Prim, Novac, and Boulder City? Not to test your skills - you can ignore the main quest line, waltz into Vegas, and be invited up to his penthouse the moment you enter the strip. And why does House agree to meet you face to face the moment you enter the strip - a man who meets no one face to face - ever - just decides to meet you b/c you (didn't) deliver him a poker chip?

I know why those above things were included: you need access to Caesar's camp regardless of your faction affiliation, the NCR needs an enemy, and you're strung along by Victor as part of the game's low-level character pathing (basically). However, in order to give you limitless choice they dispensed with things like tight narrative, natural story arc, and most noticeably character development in your character.

In F03, you're a boy/girl who is now coming of age and who can mold the wasteland to your whim.

In NV you're a gun with eyes. You can make believe any back-story you want (I'm a Khan, I'm a raider, I'm a NCR deserter) but it will not be acknowledged by anyone in the game, and isn't actually part of the game - its just your own imagination, as someone else stated - you're in-game LARPing.

I'm not denigrating people who want to RP in the game, but its bothersome that they refuse to see the absolute lack of character development (motivation/back-story) as a shortcoming.

The game play in NV is really fun. The story is. . .not there really. You have to imagine that there is a story as you're playing it.

This.

One of the reasons I found this game so immersive. I wasn't forced into things I wasn't feeling like in FO3.

By that criteria, the quest in Fallout 3 was a set of goal posts to clear.

I mean, think about it. What motivation does the LW actually have? I'll buy "find Daddy" even though James was a poorly-written character who abandoned the LW. But after that? Why does the LW help the Brotherhood? Why does the LW care about finishing James' crazy vision? Why does the LW do much of anything?

You can speculate and invent answers all you like, but if you're willing to do that for FO3, you kinda have to do that for NV as well.



Caesar invites you to his camp because he needs you and he's trying to curry favor with you. This is made pretty clear.


That's hardly a plot hole. Men have fought over matters of philosophy for a very long time. Indeed, the Cold War was a conflict of philosophies.



He is testing you. He makes that pretty clear. He's in the market for a new protege, and the mere fact that you survived getting shot in the head makes you notable enough to follow. But not notable enough to aid significantly; after all, you're still unproven before you make it to Vegas.

Even if you just skip the main quest entirely, you still made it through many miles of treacherous wasteland alone (or at best with a human friend and a robot/robodog) and into the Vegas strip when (in theory) you need to be wealthy to get in, unless you're NCR.



In NV you're a male/female courier who was shot in the head and left in an open grave, and who can now mold the wasteland to your whim via supporting one several distinct competing factions.

In Fallout 3, you're a boy/girl with a spottily-characterized parental figure, no real reason to feel attached to neither the vault itself nor the people in it, and no real options to impact the wasteland unless you want to svck at the teat of the Brotherhood; cliche "good guys" who fulfill the role of knights in shining armor and do battle with wild monsters (super mutants) and evil black knights (enclave.)

To be honest, the poor characterization of the LW is one of the reasons that Fallout 3's writing wasn't very good. Bethesda tried to have their cake and eat it too - you can either go with a vague protagonist that lets the player fill in details on their own, or you can go with a mostly defined protagonist. Let's call it... Gordon Freeman versus Duke Nukem. Both of these styles have their strengths and weaknesses.

The Lone Wanderer has some character development (including a cliche friendship with the Mayor's Overseer's daughter), but not enough to make him/her a vibrant character sufficient to build a plot around. The end result is that you get all the bad traits of railroading (I wanted to punch James in the face for being stupid; game didn't even give me the option to chew him out) without the tighter characterization and cinematic effect that games like, say, Mass Effect give. The game itself doesn't give you any real opportunity to define the character or even to explore the character, since there are no choices of import in Fallout 3 with perhaps a tiny handful of exceptions. Why does the Lone Wanderer support the Brotherhood? Because that's the only option, and the game never gives you a reason why.

The Courier dispenses with character development, much like the Vault Dweller did. Fallout 1: You're a vault dweller. You're sent out into the world to find a water chip. You define yourself by your actions during the journey. This character definition comes through in the ending, where you see the results of your actions.

New Vegas: You're a courier. You're shot in the head and recover. You can look for the person who shot you and fall head first into the swirling maelstrom of intrigue in and around New Vegas, or you can simply make your own way and do what you want. The character is defined by the actions he/she takes during the game, and you can see it all summed up in the ending.



This word, "role-playing", it does not mean what you think it does.

In short, most RPGs have almost no character development in terms of backstory. Baldur's Gate- you're the child of a murder god. Why do you stop Sarevok? Because you choose to, whether for goodness and puppies, wealth, power, or because he's been harassing you the whole game. Fallout and Fallout 2 - you're a vault dweller/tribal. Why do you do what you do? Because you choose to. You're given a goal, then turned loose to shape your character through your own choices. Arcanum - you're a who was riding in an airship that got shot down.

The game play in NV is really fun. The story is. . .not there really. You have to imagine that there is a story as you're playing it.

What exactly do you mean the story is not there? Are you saying there isn't a struggle between House, the NCR, and Caesar? :\

I kind of figured his goal was to turn New Vegas into his New Rome and turn the largely nomadic Legion into a standing army that protects it's citizens; you exactly what he says.

@Facehugger (nice name BTW)



1. F03 had a beginning in the vault. A back story regarding the relationship with your dad and your mother’s death as well as an actual friend / girlfriend - Amata. It then had a story arc where you travel through the wastes to find your father and his life’s work – Project Purity. You could destroy it or save it – up to you.

New Vegas had a gimmick – you were shot in the head. Find who did it. Why? Make up why – just do it. Oh yeah, and a big battle will take place.. . .find a reason to care about who wins. You have no stake in the outcome by the way b/c no one knows who you are and you will leave NV after the battle anyway.

2. Caesar doesn’t need you for anything. He also doesn’t need to carry favor with you, nor does he want to – he is insulting to you throughout. You were invited to his camp only b/c the developers needed a way for a legion hostile character to be able to enter the bunker, or for you to be able to recover the chip if you let Benny live. He treats you as an annoyance.

House has no rational basis to meet you up front the moment you enter NV.

3. The Cold War was a not a war. It was “fought” over resources and international influence, not naked ideology. In NV Caesar really didn’t have an political ideology that extended beyond himself nor a real reason to take the dam, other than that it was under NCR control. His “dialectic” screamed dev. afterthought.

4. You grew up with the people in vault 101 in F03. You should have some attachment to them (hey, Butch was mean to me as a kid – I don’t like him now). In NV you know no one and no one knows you. You have no friends, no family, no attachment to the in game world. No reason to care about anyone.

In F01 you are from the vault you’re trying to save. You have motivation to care about what happens to those people - they are "your" people, or a reason to feel bad if you let them die. In NV your from the ether and have a personal connection to no one.

5. I like RPG purists – an RPG has to “fill in the blank.” No, it doesn’t. The game needs a story. Your character needs to evolve. The House/NCR/Legion dynamic isn’t story - its setup. Its dry facts. Unless you had a pre-game attachment to a particular faction ("I love the NCR") You have no reason to care about any faction – they don’t even give you a reason to side with them. They treat you like dirt. At least in F03 your supplied with a reason to care about things (he’s my father, everyone will suffer / die if don’t do this, Megaton is now my home). In NV you’re a patsy – choose which side you want to be used by and rationalize that choice.

I'm not seeing how that's any better than what NV has, in all honesty. I mean, really, "finish your father's life's work." Why? Why does the LW care? Help the Brotherhood, again, why?



New Vegas had a beginning in Goodsprings. A backstory regarding your employment with the Mojave Express, and how you were hired to deliver a priceless platnium chip. It then had a story arc where you made your way to New Vegas - either to find the man who shot you in the head, to recover your package, or simply to make your fortune. It then had you choose between one of a number of factions vying for control, which have you assist them in taking Hoover Dam, one of the major power plants in the West, thereby changing the fate of the entire Mojave wasteland.

It gives the player a lot more agency than "lolwaterpurifier."


Have you done the Legion questline?



Sure he does. He wants to make sure you bring the platinum chip straight to him. He knows the Legion wants the chip and that they have agents in the city. He doesn't know whether the NCR knows about the chip or not, but he's got to be on guard for that possibility. He wants you in his pocket before any of the other factions can get you in their pocket.



The cold war was primarily an ideological conflict, and the ideology behind it gave to rise shooting conflicts like the Vietnam war. It was fought over resources and influence, but the driving force behind it was ideology; in particular, the conflict between capitalism and communism. Your objection here does not ring true.



You didn't really grow up with them. You had... three short gameplay segments with them, where they're all acting like cardboard cutouts (generic greaser bully, generic Mayor's daughter, generic kind-hearted policeman...)

The Lone Wanderer grew up with them, but we only saw tiny snapshots into this. It's awfully hard to care about one dimensional characters when they haven't had the development necessary to actually show any other dimensions.

My point is that if you don't have the writing chops to actually make well-realized and interesting characters (Bethesda doesn't,) and a rational uncontrived plot, sacrificing player choice on the altar of a linear plot is a terrible idea because it just ends up being bad. Just like Fallout 3, which was far more contrived than NV can ever be.



In Fallout 1, you don't really have any connection to the people in the Vault though. They're "your" people, but they have perhaps a few dozen lines of dialog between them. Fallout 2 isn't too much better. They're always a distant imperative.



Nonsense. Each faction gives you a reason to side with them. Each one offers something different for the wasteland. If you say "megaton is now my home", why can't you say "Freeside is now my home," or "I think Caesar's brand of order is what the wasteland needs,"?

I mean, really now. You're saying that Fallout 3, with its cliche cardboard interactions gives more attachment than your interactions with the colorful characters of New Vegas. Memorable personalities like Tabitha, No-Bark, Elder MacNamarra, or Mr. House. The only way I can see that being true is if you read into those lame tutorial quests and fabricated personalities for all those Fallout 3 characters practically from whole cloth.

,,,,, Not the Loner Wanderer neither The Courier have much motivations, but the Courier have a misterious background so, you can create your own backstory, Lone Wanderer is, "my will evil or good, i need to help the goody two shoes BOS because i dont have other options"

@facehugger

Just a few more thoughts:

1) In FO3 the Lone Wander sides with Brotherhood at the memorial. The facts that’s predetermined isn’t that bothersome to me. Beth wanted to tell a particular story (a mishmash of F01 and 2’s plot lines, using the search for water as a catalyst and the enclave as the “bad guys”) and I think they did good job.

2) I’ve done the legion quest line but consider that in all other 3 quest lines legion is the enemy. My point is this: this isn’t Vietnam. Vietnam occurred b/c of a multitude of factors (end of colonialism and the fall of French Indochina, etc.) NV can’t be that complex. They have limited time to engage and immerse the player. The game needs to set up a strong motivation for each faction to do what it is doing, and with Caesar that is noticeably absent. His beef with the NCR is left too abstract and unconvincing. Even when you finish the legion quest line, what Caesar does to NV is left rather murky beyond annihilating the Kings.

3) No-Bark and McNamara had about as much personality as Moira and Moriarty. The writing in both games was about equal in my opinion, although NV seemed to have more dialogue. However, F03 told a story and NV didn't - events happened. I never felt like a person in the wasteland, I felt like a removed casual observer, b/c my character wasn’t grounded to the in-game world. I could have been removed from the story and the final battle would have played out as planned. My character felt out of place in his own story – I was always wondering who I was and what I was doing in NV – and that just felt odd.

To be honest.... exploring the Mojave before even touching The Strip I got mixed up in all of the events going on and experienced why people were doing what they were doing and what they need to achieve their goals. The only motive I could get for why the BoS is there and doing what they do.... research tech at the Pentagon, but they also find super mutants so they kill super mutants. That is it. I do not find any motive for raiders, mercenaries, mutants, nothing about the main quest. I only encounter anything that fleshes out and supports the "main story" is by doing the main quest-line. That is railroading or I forgot something major. That is what I think.

Keep in mind this thread refers to all Fallout protagonists. The obsession with FO3 examples is a convenient distraction, but if you look at all the protagonists the issues with the Courier are glaring.

Is his motivation some sort of precognitive recognition that his influence will have far-reaching consequences in the Mojave area? Doubtful. From his perspective, any one of the factions could be a bad decision. But when the narrative reaches the point where he can choose a side, what is his personal connection and drive to do so? Again the Vault Dweller, the Chosen One and the Lone Wanderer all had personal connections and motivations. The first 2 were acting to save the lives of their communities and loved ones--that's a powerful motivator. Battles are being fought this very moment for that. The Lone Wanderer has a personal connection with his father. Shocking I know. Why does he continue with his father's work? Because he is his father's son and because that DC Wasteland is his home. He has had to drink that water. He knows what it will mean to his homeland if it works, so he takes a compassionate leap of faith, just as his father would, and canonically the purifier works.

Ignoring the topic of canon for a minute, which was the whole point to begin with, as a player, you can see the Courier as some sort of epic tabula rasa: But how then do you reconcile your personal RP motivation and immersion with the limited set of possible endings? Do they not by necessity become even more underwhelming than they already are? For example:



It's pretty ridiculous. I mean you'd have to keep role-playing beyond the ending that was written for the game you're playing and that may be totally negated by canon anyway. That's boardgame-level RP dorkness.

Back to the actual topic. There is a narrative in NV, just as there was in Fallout and Fallout 2. The game play is about playing the variations from within the narrative but there have always been canonical endings. I'm guessing either the House ending or the Independent Vegas ending will become canonical since they're both outcomes almost entirely dependent on the Courier's influence. From this point of view, compared to his predecessors, the Courier's adventure is lacking.

Ok.... as the courier I am assuming you are a resident of the Mojave and have regular dealings with most of the major population centers delivering what ever it is that needs to be delivered. Do you have no sense of connection with the area? Having a sort of nomadic lifestyle do you identify with a single location or do you find the desert its home and its residents are your people. Perhaps you have grown attached to all those people and the familiarity of the land you call home. How do you best achieve guaranteeing the safety and well-being of the area so that everything stays stable and you can continue your lifestyle traveling among them. I don't know.... do truck drivers find a connection with the areas they deliver to? Do they want the area to stay familiar and safe? Do you want to continue your life traveling among the citizens of the Mojave and with their prosperity comes the funding for your migration? I do not know.... as a man of few words I would say, "Keep it familiar and keep it safe." Since you assume vault-dwellers want to save their vaults, can the courier desire to save the region he lives in? Is that too much to ask of a person, the need to step up for the interests of the common good? Perhaps I am looking at it wrong.... please tell me if I am.

I still hold by the belief that in NV, the motivation of the Courier is whatever motivated the player. However, taking into account that eventually a canon ending will be decided in the future, there will need to be canonical motivation for the Courier personally. That being said, I think it is safe to say that the Courier's motivation lies in the decision of which faction he feels he has the most to gain from.

It is obvious what his motivation is from the beginning up until he takes care of Benny. Once he has the platinum chip, canon dictates that New Vegas is at a bubbling point to where a huge battle is going to go down. It is inevitable that there will be only one victor. So, you can say that the Courier is motivated by self-preservation. He would want to side with who 'he' feels is the more liable victor. This could be either House, NCR, or the Legion as they are the most powerful and influential in the Mojave. However, he could also feel that his chances are even better by going the route of Yes Man (although I feel this is unlikely to be canon). Once he decides who the stronger is, it is obvious that in the act of self-preservation, he will side with that faction and help them to ensure victory.

If you do not feel this is the case, please do not discount it. If you disagree, please provide a reasonable explanation as to why the Courier wouldn't be motivated by self-preservation?

The Courier goes in the direction of the danger almost all the time. He goes in the direction of a battle if he sides with all but one faction. Perhaps siding with Caesar is an instance of self-preservation, but you'd have to ignore all the other potentially life-threatening quests he undertakes just to get to that end. Self-preservation is actually a pretty tough position to argue from all things considered.

Assuming he's doing it all for personal gain or assuming he's thinking more heroically of the stability of the area and what's best for the Mojave communities gets you farther, but there's still a lot of questions there either way.

Or they can make a DLC that shows the Courior's past life.

You know ... they drawn straws to pick who would go look for the Water Chip and the Vault Dweller LOST.
Chosen One? Related to Vault Dweller so off you go and DONT complain about it.

Not so much heroic now are they ...

Honestly, New Vegas plays more like Borderlands or some sort of off-line World of Warcraft. People are raving about the story and how much it's like the old games, but I couldn't disagree more. Just about the only thing that's recognizeable about the game is the NCR name. And the NCR only played a miniscule part around the middle/end part of Fallout 2. You could call NV "Cowboy Simulator 5" and you'd be more spot on. You run around a cowboy-like locale with cowboy weapons listening to country music and playing western card games, heck a casino is even the center stage of the game! (rather than a story/plot!). The game is very fun to play though, so I don't really care what it's called or what the story is. /flameshield ON! lol

Super mutants, Ghouls, and the Enclave played much larger roles in the previous (and their respective ) Fallout games..this is one reason why I liked FO3 more, the other is the superior world design and reward for exploration. It felt like a true 3D sequel to Fallout 1 and 2... the bets parts were it being in a different state, and it's homage to the 1950s theme. As you played you felt highly immersed in the game. (if you let yourself be)

The problem its that not all of us feels FO3 as the real sucessor,

Im not a FO3 hater, it just that Bethesda dont make it feel like a Fallout game, NV on the other hands makes references to the olders game due to obvious reason (Why Marcus founded Jacobstown, what are the Khans doing in the Red Canyon, what happened to the Enclave Remnants)

I think the real problem people have with NV is that there is no outside antagonist. No super mutant or power armor army threatening the existence of EVERYONE. This is human self-interest and is way too real compared to the other fallout games. If they made the legion an army of ghouls no-one would complain about NV because it would have the "outsiders" threatening everyone again. This is just a different aspect of conflict, less about survival and more about conquest. The NCR would most likely use the Dam as either a defensive buffer or stepping stone to invading the east as it has a more direct route than heading north around the desert. The Legion need the dam to buffer against NCR incursions on their territory and as a possible path of retreat since they are surrounded on all sides by threats. A desert oasis would be a lot more defensible than grass plains. So the area is not NECESSARY to the survival of any faction and it is only more CONVENIENT for expansion, It comes down to humans doing what humans do best....finding an excuse to fight over something.

You know … drawing straws, casting lots, being drafted or conscripted fits perfectly into the "Call to Adventure" stage of the hero in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth.

Also, it's the adventure that makes them heroic, not the original circumstance we find them in--that's blindingly obvious.

Anyone reading my posts? hehe