Thanks for the info quorn! I didn't know about auto-calc'd spellcasters. From your description it seems that Spell Fix might make a few useless melee fighters. The Spell Fix mod only makes changes to the Spell records, it doesn't alter any NPC records (either the WGI version or the non-WGI version).

Thanks for explaining that, Quorn.

So let me see if I've understood correctly at the ground level:

Note to casual readers reading this last post before reading the foregoing posts, just to make sure no one is misled: The following Q&A answers are actually tentative questions for Quorn, NOT actual answers.


Q) When is the spell list for an auto-calc'd NPC built?

A) When the NPC is entry in a mod is saved in the CS. (It seems, but I'm still pretty unsure about when exactly it happens.)

Q) If true, is it just the CS that builds auto-calc'd NPCs and their spell lists upon saving? Does MWEdit do it as well? Enchanted editor or TESAME? (Almost certainly not, I imagine, for the lower-level editors.) If not, you need to make sure auto-calc'd NPCs are saved in the CS to ensure proper building, correct?

A) ?

Q) If so, what if we don't? What if we create an auto-calc'd entry in, say, Enchanted Editor, and it doesn't get properly built? Will the game fill in the blanks upon loading, or will it result in some sort of error/problem?

A) ?

Q) When does auto-calc'ing for other stats occur?

A) At the same time, when the NPC entry is saved. All auto-calc'd stats are built then.

Q) So how can we tell what spells got into an auto-calc'd NPC's spell list?

A) The spells that show in the the NPC's spell list are the ones that have been selected for that NPC by the Auto-calc mechanism.

Q) How can we tell how many times an auto-calc'd spell is being ref'd?

A) While the Object Window only shows non-auto-calc'd refs, the right-click/Info window will show both. So, for example, loading the Morrowind.esm master by itself and looking at the "spark" spell, it shows a count of 14 refs. But right-clicking and going to Info, it shows 41 refs. So the Info dialogue gives a reliable count of all auto-calc'd assignments of the spell to auto-calc'd NPCs (just subtract the number of assigned refs in the "Count" column on in the Object Window to get the actual number -- here, 41 minus 14, or 27).



Q) If you un-autocalc an NPC, save it without deleting his spell list, and re-autocalc him, will it erase the old spell list and rebuild it?

A) ? (I noticed a mention of this in, I believe, the WGI
readme -- something about un-autocalcing and then re-autocalcing NPCs
or something along those lines.)


Q) Is Spell Fix functionally sound for an average, non-modding-savvy player to use?

A) Not really, as it will either fail to have the desired effect (because the NPCs affected have not been re-saved), or it will have too much of an effect (leaving auto-calc'd spellcasters as their own chaff). This radical of a change needs to include a re-save of all NPCs.

Q) So, is there an easier way to have all NPCs re-autocalc'd than opening each entry and re-saving it?

A) ?

Actually, I think the auto-calc'd spell list is generated when the .esp/.esm are loaded in-game, and not saved (just like skills/attributes aren't saved). Since the NPC is auto-calc'd, I'm guessing that the game calculates everything for the NPC on loading according to the last plug-in's GMSTs. So the only way to know what will be on an auto-calc'd NPC's spell list (and their stats) is to load all the plug-ins that would affect auto-calculation by adding auto-calc'd spells, and/or changing the GMSTs governing auto-calculation.

Right-clicking a spell's info will show all the instances of the spell at the moment, though the 'count' in list view only includes instances where the actor is placed in the world, excluding levelled list actor entries.

So there really isn't a reason to re-calculate an auto-calc'd NPC as it's all automatic and done on-the-fly. Unless you just mean removing the auto-calc flag, in which case it's best done in the construction set so the attribute, skill, and spell entries will generate. Removing auto-calc will leave the NPC static, non-affected by the auto-calc system. I honestly don't know how the plug-in will react if an entry is flagged outside the construction set...

So basically, an auto-calc'd NPC is at the mercy of any plug-in that adds or affects auto-calculation in any way, while static NPCs are only affected if their assigned spells are changed to where they can no longer cast them (where auto-calc'd NPCs would re-calc their spell list for valid spells).

Hope this helps, kinda seems overly complicated and a bit convoluted.

:huh:
:blink:
:wacko:

reading the last few posts gave me a headache.

i do remember when i use to use spell fix, that a lot of npcs no longer used spells, though i thought it was a result of WGI and a couple other balance mods.

(A little late in responding -- sorry.)

Yeah, I am definitely getting the impression that Spell Fix is really not a good solution to the problem. Rebalancing, now... We're talking about creating a rebalancing of economy and item game stats in another thread, and I'm thinking that a much-needed magic rebalance (one that stays fairly conservative but doesn't shy from significant changes if balance truly warrants) that might be something worthwhile to build into it. What do you think of a project to create an integrative, standardized rebalance, Quorn?

It would definately be a large undertaking to balance spells and auto-calc. With group input, it should become more manageable. ^_^

I think the first step would be to come up with a small group of 'core' spells for NPCs to cast with varying strengths, and work on the balance for those specific spells through trial and error. Then other spells could be added following the guidelines for variety, checking to make sure spells are assigned intelligently, and that the NPCs utilize them correctly.

This whole thread gave me one. The last sentence of your post is the kind of thing I'm wary about with these kinds of mods.

I suppose it's fair to ask, after the overwhelming glut of choices and information here:

Which mod is the best choice, that doesn't have any negative side effects?

Me too! It's likely I should delete my restatement of the facts, or at least the incorrect majority of it, for the sake of poor readers down the line. Apologies for the mess.

That definitely seems to be the effect.


Sounds like a good way to start it off.


Nah, I don't think it would be fair to judge most other mods by the standard of Spell Fix. Spell Fix is definitely a radical mod that literally, in effect, disables a major function of the game with widespread effects -- essentially more of a major experiment than something to use in a for-pleasure game. It is the exception.

As for the other mods, they're all safe -- or at least no more dangerous than any other mod. The one caveat I would add is that some people have run into problems using the MWE framework, so that's something to be aware of for Azrael's Magicka Based Spell Advancement (and that fact is listed on the reference chart for it). But the rest offer no problems that I have seen, and many use them. Don't feel shy about trying them out.

Also, just as a reminder, please remember to check http://www.mwmythicmods.com/Gluby/Gluby_Magicka_and_Spell_Effect_Mods.htm, as I stopped updating the forum thread version a while ago.

Kinda a large bump, but we have a good discussion going, and I'd like to make some more comments before they slip my mind.

Another issue in spellcasting is how the spells are assigned to the spell list, along with the magicka costs. I think the NPC first goes by magicka costs & success, then by positioning. A modder can utilizing this priority by playing with spell costs and their position in the list so that the spellcasters can cast intelligently. Auto-calc'd NPCs can sometimes pick differing spells of the same effect and cost, and get stuck casting the same effects over and over (like the burden issue I mentioned earlier). Spellcasting AI in general tries to switch spells depending on what spells are still active on their target. Spells with no duration are continually spammed, while spells with a few second durations will be correctly identified and the NPC will switch to another spell, or melee, until the original spell wears off. NPCs can't recognize if their target is resistant, immune, absorbs, or reflects, so if a spell is ineffective, they'll still continue to cast it until they run out of magicka, or switch targets.

Autocalc'd spell merchants are also a bad thing, as they can pick up 'bad' spells and sell them to the player, as well as have their spells for sale completely at the mercy of other plug-ins. This is why most spell merchants aren't auto-calc'd.

Another bump. Has anyone started on any projects to balance spellcasting?

The biggest improvement we can make for NPC spellcasting is to have NPCs rely less on instant and low duration spells, and use more longer duration spells. This will allow the AI to change spells more frequently in combat, and actually use melee inbetween when their target is afflicted with their spells. I did this with the lich in one of my revision of Firemoth, where the lich will prioritize curses, followed by damage spells, and when the player is afflicted with every effect the lich can throw at the player, then will draw weapon and engage in melee. This was made possible by utilizing differeing durations for spells.

We could also script for the NPC to detect at least if the player is immune or absorbing/reflecting spells, though it would be kinda heavy-handed. It would however add a lot to NPC engagement, where we could in theory have an NPC switch from offensive magic to defensive magic should the player be immune or absorbing/reflecting.