War of the Red Diamond

Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:05 am

So the Amulet of Kings is passed from Emperor to Emperor, or, as was the case in the War of the Red Diamond featuring the much-disliked Wolf Queen of Solitude, Empress. Now, how could she possibly dispute the succession if the Amulet of Kings was successfully placed upon the Empress to be? For that matter, how could there ever be succession debate?
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Emilie Joseph
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:23 am

So the Amulet of Kings is passed from Emperor to Emperor, or, as was the case in the War of the Red Diamond featuring the much-disliked Wolf Queen of Solitude, Empress. Now, how could she possibly dispute the succession if the Amulet of Kings was successfully placed upon the Empress to be? For that matter, how could there ever be succession debate?

Its politics, so there can be a succession debate. Or at least thats the simple asnwer. The long answer would be that the amulet of Kings could have been pasted onto several different people. THe debate comes when you have to decide who gets it.
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Romy Welsch
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:15 pm

Its politics, so there can be a succession debate. Or at least thats the simple asnwer. The long answer would be that the amulet of Kings could have been pasted onto several different people. THe debate comes when you have to decide who gets it.

But theoretically could you not just walk around trying to put it on people until it stays on? The thing is, The Wolf Queen claimed that the Empress was in no way related to Tiber Septim because her mother was of ill repute. That's impossible, because the necklace HAD to have been successfully placed. Unless it was, as you say, pasted.
I suppose succession debates apart from the War of the Red Diamond would involve whose blood is purer, eh?
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SUck MYdIck
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:13 pm

What most people forget is that the succession is not only the bloodline part: after all, the direct bloodline to Tiber Septim was broken very early, when Tiber Septim's grandson Pelagius died and the daughter of Tiber's brother Kintyra assumed the throne. However, as I think, the bloodline is just one thing and imho the lesser one. Far more important to me is the nature of the Emperor, if not to say the metaphysical stature of being Emperor. In Tamriel, Emperor isn't just an inherited office.
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Chloe Mayo
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 9:52 am

What most people forget is that the succession is not only the bloodline part: after all, the direct bloodline to Tiber Septim was broken very early, when Tiber Septim's grandson Pelagius died and the daughter of Tiber's brother Kintyra assumed the throne. However, as I think, the bloodline is just one thing and imho the lesser one. Far more important to me is the nature of the Emperor, if not to say the metaphysical stature of being Emperor. In Tamriel, Emperor isn't just an inherited office.

Indeed the character, wisdom, and the ability to lead of the Emporer will surely be tested, and thus, the AoK shall deem the wearer worthy or not.
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liz barnes
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 3:46 pm

Indeed the character, wisdom, and the ability to lead of the Emporer will surely be tested, and thus, the AoK shall deem the wearer worthy or not.

No. There were Emperors whose rule was bad, unwise or at times even dominated by madness, but all were true Emperors. As I said - it's about metaphysical, yes even divine, stature, literally.
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Victoria Bartel
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 6:08 am

No. There were Emperors whose rule was bad, unwise or at times even dominated by madness, but all were true Emperors. As I said - it's about metaphysical, yes even divine, stature, literally.


That's an interesting point, Nalion. There are cultures in our world that have claimed the divine right of kings, but in the Mundus it's a reality, not a claim. Maybe the fate of the Septims is similar to the Chinese belief in the Mandate of Heaven. When a dynasty loses its mandate, an era ends and a new dynasty arises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_heaven

After reading the above article, I guess I'm wrong: "Heaven would bless the authority of a just ruler, but would be displeased with a despotic ruler and would withdraw its mandate." This is different from TES, as Nalion points out.

However: "The Mandate does not require that a legitimate emperor be of noble birth, and in fact, dynasties were often founded by people of modest birth (such as the Han dynasty and Ming dynasty)." This is true in TES also, as far as I can see.

Anyway, it seems like a good point that Nalion made.
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Ells
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 7:33 am

All of this is fine and dandy, but it still ignores that it would have been very difficult for the Wolf Queen to have disputed Kintyra II's rule, given that she wore the Amulet of Kings. Exactly how final is the Amulet of Kings' say? Apparently not very, or so many would not have rallied under her and she would have had far less success. For that matter. how did The Wolf Queen's son Uriel claim himself Emperor without wearing the Amulet? Or did he wear it once it was retrived from Kintyra?
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Leticia Hernandez
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 4:53 am

How common is full knowledge of the amulet of kings in Tamriel?
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Nana Samboy
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:03 am

All of this is fine and dandy, but it still ignores that it would have been very difficult for the Wolf Queen to have disputed Kintyra II's rule, given that she wore the Amulet of Kings. Exactly how final is the Amulet of Kings' say? Apparently not very, or so many would not have rallied under her and she would have had far less success. For that matter. how did The Wolf Queen's son Uriel claim himself Emperor without wearing the Amulet? Or did he wear it once it was retrived from Kintyra?


Well, as far as I can understand it, couldn't both of them have worn it with no problems? I'm no expert on the War of the Red Diamond, but perhaps Potema didn't claim that Kintyra II had no right to rule, but instead claimed that her son had more right to rule (based on the "disrepute" of the other mother)?

This thread actually somewhat answers a question I was going to create a new thread about: how did the Amulet of Kings work with the Akaviri Potentates? They were certainly not of Alessian/Septim blood, yet the Dragonfires were lit nonetheless? Were they actually able to wear the Amulet of Kings, despite being completely alien to Tamriel? Just seems a bit odd to me. :) Anyway, I don't want to steal this thread; perhaps this could be a side discussion? :)
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Casey
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 6:36 pm

how did the Amulet of Kings work with the Akaviri Potentates?

They were not Emperors and they didn't wear the Amulet (It was lost when Reman died)
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Sarah Bishop
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 1:06 pm

How common is full knowledge of the amulet of kings in Tamriel?

If you notice, even the employees at Bethesda are ignorant of it.
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Invasion's
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 9:47 am

The throne must be contested; its the nature of Nirn for Pete's sake. That wascally Dwagon is to blame.
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Ownie Zuliana
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 6:33 pm

They were not Emperors and they didn't wear the Amulet (It was lost when Reman died)

Ah, I see. But if they didn't wear the Amulet, how were the Dragonfires lit? How did the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion stay up? Did Akatosh just say, "Well, better not let that happen...I guess I can fudge a little bit on this whole 'Dragonfires keeping out the Daedra invasion' thing until the Third Era"? I must be missing something. :)
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Adriana Lenzo
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 7:37 am

Ah, I see. But if they didn't wear the Amulet, how were the Dragonfires lit? How did the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion stay up? Did Akatosh just say, "Well, better not let that happen...I guess I can fudge a little bit on this whole 'Dragonfires keeping out the Daedra invasion' thing until the Third Era"? I must be missing something. :)
Shor's heart was still in Red Mountain.
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Catherine Harte
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Oh man...I really apologize for completely hijacking this thread!! Sorry!

So Shor's heart was what was keeping the barrier up? Interesting. So Akatosh made that pact with Alessia knowing that it wouldn't matter for a long time, but that eventually the Heart would be destroyed and the Dragonfires would be the only thing between Mundus and Oblivion? I guess that makes sense. Thanks! :)
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Nicholas C
 
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Post » Fri May 13, 2011 7:56 am

Oh man...I really apologize for completely hijacking this thread!! Sorry!

So Shor's heart was what was keeping the barrier up? Interesting. So Akatosh made that pact with Alessia knowing that it wouldn't matter for a long time, but that eventually the Heart would be destroyed and the Dragonfires would be the only thing between Mundus and Oblivion? I guess that makes sense. Thanks! :)


No, "the measure of selfishness" bit.

Those are events that reinforce the divine spirituality and in turn reality of the land.
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Sam Parker
 
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