One thing that caught my attention about Bethesda Games back when I first started playing them was the option and actual focus on playing these games in first-person. I am a person who despises the FPS genre and has always longed to see first-person views in the games I enjoy because I've always thought of them being better for immersion, but I had never actually played a game in first-person view before. I've never played a first-person shooter, but from the demos I've tried, I know it just doesn't appeal to me, hence Bethesda-developed games, and New Vegas, are literally the only first-person games I have ever played... and I really like first-person views. I must question this near-exclusivity of first-person views to shooters. For people I've seen on these forums, "first-person" seems to be synonymous with "first-person shooter" or "first-person shooter style". Some people I've seen on here refer to first-person view as "FPS style", as if the "S" or "shooter" part is destined to follow "FP" or "first-person" due to some progammed reaction.

Some people don't seem to consider a game an RPG unless it has a third-person view or, sometimes, specifically an isometric version of that third-person view. The only other genre other than first-person shooters that typically have a first-person view are racing games, but they don't seem to be factored into this perception of first-person view's role in a game's genre and don't involve actually playing in control of the player character's body, but rather a vehicle. I don't understand the reaction I've mentioned. I know why people have the reaction, as FPS games seem to have this exclusity of the first-person viewpoint in games involving running on your character's own, two legs, but I don't understand how, on anolysis, anyone would see the logic in this or why FPS games have this exclusivity arrangement involving first-person view. I would love to play more RPGs in first-person or some action games in first-person, but these games scarcely exist. I played a demo of Mirror's Edge once and thought to myself "this game's developers get it".

I have some ideas as to why first-person views are rarely integrated into acrobatic action games with combination moves, counter attacks, and enemies attacking from all sides. I think having a viable camera angle to allow one to know what's going on and to stay oriented while performing these acrobatic feats or elaborate combat sequences would be difficult from a first-person view, but I want to see some attempts at and flexibility with this, as with Mirror's Edge, but for real-time RPGs, I don't understand one bit why first-person views are so rare.

The purpose for this thread is both to discuss why this specific viewpoint isn't more common outside of the FPS genre, why it automatically must be associated with FPS's, what problems may arise from adopting a first-person view in more RPGs and actions games, how it may be handled, and what those reading this think about first-person, it's role in gaming, and where they would like to see it more of it, if at all.

Part of the reason it's absent from a lot of games is that while it's certainly good for immersion, it might not actually be fun. You just can't be as aware of what's around you in a game as you are in real life. Imagine games like Diablo 2 in first person, where you're constantly clicking in all directions. You need that unrealistically enhanced environmental awareness that comes with non first person views to make some games fun.

Unlike in real life, which you almost have a 180° view, but that is not true for FP view in games, FP limits you a lot in what you can see while playing real-time RPG or action platform game (which in most games, you can't even see your feet!). Besides, everyone likes to see the fancy cape your RPG character is wearing. Also Third-Person style of shooter tends to be more inaccurate, in both programming wise and aim, which is why FPS is more often associated to shooter games.

Pretty much that. Immersion is good, but if you can't use the perspective for gameplay, you shouldn't.
Many times this is because of the separation of player and character immersion. In a role-playing game, those two can go along well in terms of control, but not so much skill. Just look at vanilla Fallout 3, accuracy is mainly determined by the player, even though in an RPG the skill itself should play a far greater role.
Shooters combine both skill and control of player and character - shoot at A, you hit A.
Most other genres won't work that way though, since the gameplay abstracts the action shown into button commands. You'd lose track of your surroundings too fast if the action were shown in first person.

In the popular consciousness, it seems that most people automatically identify first person views with first person shooters, as though being first person is the only defining trait of these games, conveniently forgetting the "shooter" part at the end, implying that these games focus on shooting. To do away with this sort of assumption, we would need more games that don't fall into the FPS genre which have a third person view. But due to the general association of the view point with first person shooters, a lot of designers, when making games in other genres, don't want to make them first person for fear that fans will go all "OMG th3r3 terning it into an FPS OMGLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111" on them at least that's my theory. Obviously, there are some games in genres other than the FPS genre that manage to succeed despite using a first person perspective, the Elder Scrolls, of course, being one of them, but I think it says something that, despite the success of the Elder Scrolls, most popular RPGs on the market still remain third person adventures.

Honestly, though, it comes down to a question of the kind of game you want to make, really. Some third person games I just can't see working in a first person perspective, at the same time, I think I'd be rather dissappointed if Bethesda decided to remove the first person perspective from the Elder Scrolls. I would say that the first person perspective is underused outside of first person shooters, yes, but I don't usually look at a specific third person game and think "This game should have been first person." not usually, anyway, not unless the game really feels like it would have worked perfectly in first person. Or it's a sequel to a first person game and I feel the decision to change the perspective was detrimental to the game.

I would never see my phat lewt.

I use both views and am glad I have that option, in Morrowind and Oblivion. And would with other games if I had that option. While fighting, I will use the first person view, just because it is easier to see what I'm doing and to aim at the opponent. But when just running around on foot, or riding my horse, talking to an NPC, etc., I will pop it into third person so I can see my character. Kind of silly to download and install all of my many clothing and armor mods if I don't actually get to look at them.

Most RPGs around 1990 were all first person view games, like Might & Magic, Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore and so on. But then the genre moved to an isometric viewpoint.

I always prefered first person views in games myself, I want to see what the game character see, no matter if I play Trex Warrior, System Shock, Bloodlines, Mirror's Edge or whatever.

I wonder if that was a console influence, as they never used 1st person(only a very small minority).

No, not at all. Ultima 7, Ultima 8, Fallout, Baldur's Gate and all those were for PC and used an isometric view.

It's the decline in popularity of turn-based systems that caused it. Real-time is hard to manage in first person if you want to keep character skill influence at the highest level and still deliver epic battles between a group of adventurers and monstrous hordes.

Eye of the Beholder! That game really blew me away when I was younger! Felt like such a big game.

Like most said in one way or another, spacial awareness.

IMO, i like my shooters like Resident Evil 4 style 3rd person / w over the shoulder aim.

First person is certainly more immersive and my favoured perspective by far, but if it doesn't suit the gameplay style (what if Vanquish had just been another FPS with sliding?) then I'm not going to complain that developers aren't getting it.

Mirror's Edge is one of my favourite games though, and on the face of it one wouldn't think that free running is suited to first person at all :shrug: and there are certain franchises (TES for instance) for which I would selfishly see third person abolished entirely that the most effort can be devoted to first person. It's undeniably superior for immersion.

Imagine Amnesia: The Dark Descent in third person...

Personally from playing Mirror Edge I thought that the genre of FP games in general and how Mirror's edge try to stray from it ( sure you could grab a gun in mirror's edge but I very rarely did it). It is kinda hard to stray to a different medium in games these days it seems , sure there is an original game every year but most mechanics are the same practically 95% shooter games are in FP except for like well Gears and Uncharted. And most RPGs are in first person except bethesda's games and a few others. It is hard to change the view point for a certain game genre. For example there was some college football game a couple years back that allowed to play in first person , which in case from what I saw it was very odd and clunky. How the player views the game through 3rd or 1st person does affect in some ways how fun it is. Personally I don't want to play a football game in first person because it would be difficult . Most RPG makers believe a third person view will most easy on the player without taking away fun.

So how did the shift from what Freddo mentioned to what we have now occur?

It really depends on implementation. I think just about any genre can work in a third-person or first-person perspective. And that is a belief I adopted after playing Mirror's Edge. I was extremely skeptical of a first-person platformer (basically) working. But the idea that it could work intrigued me so much that I bought it the day it came out and I loved it. I found the experience of doing all that platforming in first-person to be a much more "immersive" and a enjoyable experience then say, playing Tomb Raider, a third-person platformer. Dice just nailed it.

I don't think it's really a matter of developers being afraid people are going to associate their game with a FPS if they use a first-person camera, rather they prefer third-person games or they feel that's what's right for their particular game. First-Person is, in my opinion, associated with FPS games, because to me they are their own genre within the shooter genre. And it just fits better to be able to look down your sights in first-person as opposed to the camera just zooming in a little for third-person shooters. A first-person shooter just feels more natural to me than a third-person one. And I think a lot of people share that viewpoint, seeing as how we have more successful first-person shooters than third-person.

Probably this:


I think that FPP (first person perspective) games are mainly used in shooters because of utility purposes, since you don't have to worry about blocking off a large portion of the screen. Other genres I think just evolved in a similar way. For example, a platformer like Super Mario Bros would not have been as easy to pick up and enjoy if it were in first person. The length of jumps and the speed of the character would be more difficult to represent in first-person. Now we have reached a point where it's possible to make a simple platformer playable in FPP, but I guess the the roots of the genre hold us back a bit? (also, some people find FPP combined with platforming to be nauseating) I think that the industry is built upon tweaking and changing what was there before, but it makes it unlikely that we'll see first-person tennis or football games any time soon (plus, think about the animations).

I personally dislike games with an exclusively isometric view. I have tried to play games like Diablo & Never Winter Nights, but I don't enjoy them.
I don't really really enjoy 1st person shooters like COD Black Ops where you are ALWAYS in danger. I've tried it on a PS3. It's nuts. Not being used to the controller didn't help. :blush2:
I like to explore, and fight when I want or have to.
Basically, I only play Bethesda games and they give you a choice (between 1st & 3rd) and I use them both but 1st person about 95% of the time. In Oblivion, 3rd person view is good when running long distances through meadows and forests, because you can be more aware of approaching enemies...and DEER !!
In Morrowind I use 3rd person the same way occasionally, and never fight unless I'm in 1st person. I've tried 3rd person battle but it seems awkward and disorienting.
I like 1st person because it's like my eyeballs in the game world....and I can say with a great deal of certainty that if it weren't for Bethesda via Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3, I probably wouldn't play video games at all. (and everybody that read this just about lost they breath!) It's true.

I used to love playing games in TPP. Nowadays, I much prefer FPP (or isometric perspective).