I think they need togas, or at least something toga-like.

In Morrowind, they had the Praetorian armor. But you really only ever see one style of dress for the clothes in Morrowind and Oblivion.

They need to bring variety back to the clothing, in general.

Bring back the Roman armor. Just sayin.

They need to use more Roman weapons, like the gladius and the pilum.

Also Scorpios (artillery), because they're awesome.

Keep the current Imperial bonuses of diplomacy and all-around adaptability. Create a higher demand for diplomatic characters - make more scenarios that can be "talked out". Basically, an Imperial should be able to worm his way out of a situation that an Orc never could. Keep them olive skinned, keep them Roman.

I don't care for the concept art from the Imperial Library, nor have I ever liked the idea of Cyrodiil being a vast jungle. Valenwood is jungle. Blackmarsh and Elsweyr are partially jungle. At that rate, about 60% of Tamriel would be jungle. I just don't see the dominant culture of Tamriel building in a tropical jungle - they'd have to spend too much time trying to survive and deal with the harsh climate that they wouldn't have any left over for diplomacy and innovation. I don't care if the jungle came first - it deserved to be retconned.

To be fair, not all of Cyrodiil would be jungle, just slightly more than shown in Oblivion. And I don't really imagine a tropical rainforest, I would say more of a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperate_rainforest. The stereotypical Amazon would be more true of Argonia imo.

Yeah, that was Ken Rolston's feeling as well. But the concept art isn't from the library, it's official art.

Pre-Tiberian Cyrodiil was a great contradiction in the perceived Euro-American world view. Its inhabitants were not the familiar white Anglo-Saxon populations which play the role of the civilizing conquerer in most fantasy, they were a strange and unfamiliar peoples with attributes of the Other. They are, for the most part, jungle dwelling 'primitives' -- and yet they are the bringers of civilization and culture to the rest of the world. The Nedic peoples give us also the white man as slave, as opposed to slaver.

What was delivered by Morrowind, Oblivion, and even Redguard did not live up to the myth of the Other-as-Us. What we received were instead the romanticized constructs of the western civilization. Rome, as conqueror and civilizer of the barbaric Dunmer Others. Medieval England, mother land to half a dozen colonies, wellspring of civilization. Both these constructs reinforce a fear of that which is different. The assumption that one cannot identify with the Other - be it true or not - discredits players.

I think the slaves who overthrew the Imperial City were more reminiscent of the Thracians. Who led many slave revolts in Rome, including the famous revolt of Spartacus.

I don't think slavery in the Elder Scrolls has every been an allusion to slavery in the British Empire. And there were many European and African kings and governors purchasing white slaves in those times.

But I think the inclusion of slavery in Morrowind is just because slavery is always something that existed in history and it would add more depth to the world.

I just hope that the Imperial Legions in TES V return to wearing the glorious purple-trimmed skirt that the guards in Morrowind did. :shifty:

This.

Rome =/= the Ayleids. Rome =/= Cyrodiil. the British Empire =/= Cyrodiil (as depicted in Oblivion). I was pointing out the fact that Cyrodiil had been reduced to a stereotypical white, european empire - which is not only stereotypical but also somewhat Orientalist - while it had previously been a 'Other', that is non white, non european civilization that conquered and spread its customs around the world. It was a wonderful reversal of the Eurocentric world view (which, like it or not, still dominates modern fantasy and media in general). In other words, I was saying that Cyrodiil should have remained a jungle with half a hundred tribes and taken influence from unusual sources (Mesoamerica, the Indus civilization, early - not stereotypical - China, India, and the like) rather than falling back on the stereotype of Europe (as in Oblivion) and Rome (as the classical originator of civilization).

And yes, I realize that applying literary theory to a videogame setting is a bit... unusual. It was an excerpt from a much longer piece which I wrote while studying this crap into the wee hours of the morning (for school). It kinda gets ingrained up in there, at that point.

I voted for the status quo, essentially (one race, Cyrodiil-as-presented, same appearance).

I like the idea of subraces if it's implemented to all of the races (Wayrest/Daggerfall Bretons, Ashlander/Great House Dunmer, etc.) in a way that doesn't feel forced and adds something to the gameplay, but I feel like for the most part, simply adding more customization options to the chargen would work just as well. I don't like the idea of having two distinct races for Imperials because they're both part of the same geographical and cultural part of the world, even though there are differences between the two. It'd be like saying that an Oregonian and Texan aren't both Americans because their cultures are a bit different.

I personally think that Cyrodiil as they've depicted it (twice) is breathtaking. But by main issue with the rainforest vs. temperate forest situation is that in order for a rainforest to be done believably, it would have to restrict exploration pretty heavily, as there would be a ton of undergrowth that would basically be impossible to navigate unless you want to give yourself carpel tunnel clearing the shrubbery with your sword. Cyrodiil-as-rainforest, if done in a way that is conducive to exploration (and not just a few trails that are traversable to the player and lead straight to points of interest, also known as the FF XIII method), would basically be Oblivion with a paintjob and some different trees. One of those is (to me) undesirable, and I'm completely ambivalent to the other.

And, on the subject of appearance, I'd like to see more visual distinction between Imperials, Bretons, and Nords, but in general I'm pretty pleased with how they look.

Hate to bring it up again, but this:

Just wanted to say your geography is a little distorted. Kush is on the Nile River south of Egypt. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Kush-400aC.jpg

On Imperials:
I think a range of skin colors is good, perhaps with some differentiation between Nibenayans and Colovians. They should be of one race though. Skin color should center around a olive or brownish complexion, with dark hair and dark eyes.

The heart of Cyrodiil should be temperate rain forests, like the Northwest Pacific Coast of the U.S. and Canada. Heading west towards Skingrad, Cyrodiil should rise into a plateau, with cold, frosty, and dry winters and blistering hot but wetter summers. Think something similar to Tibet. Here you'll find herders and small salty lakes dotting the landscape, with civilization keeping close to water sources to irrigate their crops. Just before you reach the coast, the plateau drops sharply into a Mediterranean-climate-like region in which you find Anvil and perhaps Sutch.

Going south from the Imperial City, you should encounter marshlands, bogs, and extensive slow moving river systems (as opposed to the waterfalls and rapids of western or northern Cyrodiil.). In parts of this region, there should be extensive sub-tropical or tropical rain forests, even reaching right up into the lower Valus Mountains, where perhaps Mir Corrup stands, jutting above the tree tops on a cliff face and overlooking the lower Nibenay. Just to the north, we have Cheydinhal, with its extensive pine forests, and to the North West of here, we have marvelous deciduous forests all the way to Chorrel.

I would sort of design the Imperial style with Latin and Iberian influences, mixed it distinctively with Meso-American, Turkic, German, and other influences. As I see it, an Imperial soldier would be an awesome combination of http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/002_Samnites.jpg, http://www.sbceo.k12.ca.us/~vms/carlton/Renaissance/Aztecs/AztecWarriors3.jpg, and http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Costume/Hungarian/19dw2.jpg.

Man, just writing this post totally makes me want to make a mod for Oblivion: Cyrodiil. :hubbahubba:

EDIT: I'd also like to see some Pacific North-West Amerindian inspiration as well.

likewise

:applauds: Well said, Lady Nerevar, well said.

I love people who know enough to correct me! :foodndrink:

However, when the bible mentions "Kush" (in this case) I'm pretty sure they're talking about the kingdom of the http://books.google.com/books?id=UNj89q_8Nu4C&pg=PA225&lpg=PA225&dq=kush+kassites&source=bl&ots=1m5OSbUG6e&sig=PYY5BJ2icHqlNkWNPVLEq-Ow4LQ&hl=en&ei=a4Q3TJjdDamIlAeMkrmIDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=kush%20kassites&f=false, who set up in central Mesopotamia after invading.

I doubt it would be referring to the Ethiopian "Kush" because that was way south of the Tigris and Euphrates.
http://books.google.com/books?id=cjE9cxsm7MwC&pg=PA17&dq=kush+kassites&hl=en&ei=mYk3TP-xGYH7lweD-KTTBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=kush%20kassites&f=false

For Imperials I'd prefer them to remain the same except with just a few more distinctions between Colovian and Nibenese ones but still remain one race.

As for Cyrodiil I never liked the jungle idea, a jungle seems more suitable for somewhere like Elswer or Valenwood but doesn't really fit Imperial culture IMO. (It would be like Hammerfell being snowy or Black Marsh being a desert)
So keep it like Arena/Oblivion.

And for changing their appearance I voted no.

To be truthful I've never heard of the Kassite realm being called "Assyrian Kush" before. I know the Kassites weren't native to Mesopotamia, but migrated into the region c. 1595 (probably from Persia) and supplanted the ruling dynasty in Babylon with their own. They stayed around for 250 years until the Assyrians whipped them ripe and seized Babylon for themselves. If anything, I'd give you Kish, which was a city just a few miles south of Babylon. I have no idea if it was even populated at the time, but it was certainly populated during the time of the First Babylonian Empire (c. 1700s).

On Topic: I've decided to list all of the human tribes I could find. Most I'd lump in as Imperial but some could have been Nords:

Kothringi
Orma
Yespest
Horwalli
Keptu
Nede
Al-Gemha
Men-of-'Kreath
Men-of-Ge
Men-of-Ket
Al-Hared

It would be great to get some history on these tribes! Where were they from? Which ones took part in the Alessian rebellion? What were their customs? Which were rivals?

More history into the Cyrodiils would help in the fleshing out of the Imperials, methinks.

And if anyone wants to comment on my previous post on the previous page, please, go right ahead!

To be honest, when I first read Kush in the bible, I immediately thought Euphrates because of this http://mystudies1.wordpress.com/who-is-sargon/, I had read earlier. But you're right, that's Kish, not Kush.

The thing I've discovered about that bible though, is that, while's it's timeline can be screwy, it's geography is usually on point.

Anyway, I assume you moved back to Tamriel when you list all those tribes, because I don't recognize any. Wow, I'm lost now. Maybe I should make a new topic in off-topic.

P.S. the stuff you say about the Kassites reminds me so much of the Scythians. I wouldn't be surprised if they were another steppe people from Central Asia.

I want imperials to be Roman influenced like in Morrowind but to a little more extreme. The people should have sort of tanish to bronze skin depending on if they live in Colovia or Nibenay and the men should be short but stocky. In Cyrodill people should wear togas, tunics, and robes. It would make clothing less generic then the usual medieval clothing that is in every fantasy game.

Yeah the clothing bothered me in both Morrowind and Oblivion. It was all very uncreative and generic.

Daggerfall had three distinct styles of dress, I noticed: Breton, Redguard and Khajit.

I hope they drop generic clothing in future games to make the cultures a little more diverse.

I'd like to have Nibenese and Colovians as two races. I think http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/FieldsMedalFrontArchimedes.jpg picture would be a great example of a Colovian man, most Colovians would have beards like their Nordic cousins but with a different style. The Colovians should be bronze skinned like the concept art, and the Nibenese could range from pale to tanned (like Spaniards, Italians and Greeks) and some of them South American Indian like. They might even have a third 'Cyrodillic' race which represents the Imperials who don't are of mixed blood and don't (fully) belong to either the Colovian or Nibenese race, they would have both diplomatic and fighting skills and would be the jack-of-all-trades that the Imperials where in Morrowind and Oblivion.

For there style they could off course have Roman influences but I think Morrowind was a bit over the top, there shields, armors and there laurel wreaths as crowns, though in Oblivion they where like 'stereotype medieval Europe fantasy' which is probably worse. So they could really have a more less unique influence (like the examples of Lady Nerevar, Mesoamericans and stuff)

I support the rain forest Cyrodiil, though not fully (though it would be better than how it was in Oblivion anyway). I think Colovia was somewhat good in Oblivion, the Gold Coast should be mostly sunny grass fields, some trees most of the grass should be yellowish and it was quite good in Oblivion. The Colovian Highlands should be somewhat like Greece, North Africa the mountains of Spain with semi-tribal Colovian villages in the hills and mountains and many people living as shepherds and many men gone to the legion.

The 'Great Forest' region of Oblivion should be a temperate rainforest, the Nibenay Basin (the area east of the Imperial City/the Niben River and South of Cheydinhal) should be a more tropical rain forest with many small rivers flowing trough it (without it becoming a swamp) and small river based villages along those rivers.
To the south near Leyawiin (though only on the east side of the river) in the Black Wood area it would slowly become more and more swampy the closer it gets to the border with Argonia. The swamp area was basically was already done in Oblivion though it could become even more swampy and this area also should have more small rivers.
The western shore should be a more fertile area.

The West Weald (the southern area with Skingrad as regional capital) should have it's own environment, so it won't be just a part of the Great Forest, the Nibenay or the Colovian region. My idea is not very original since it's basically a combination of Skingrads two 'themes', though it might be an interesting combination. It might be intresting to have the West Wield to be a combination of the forests of Eastern Europe (because of the 'vampire theme' Skingrad basically has, though not really because of this but it's how I came up with the idea) and the French and Italian Country side (since it has many large tomato farms and vineyards, or at least they should have it). I don't know exacly how to combine these two but it could be interesting. The French-Italian climate thing could make it more easily go over in the warmer Colovian climate in the (North-)West and the forest part makes it more easily go over into the Great Forest to the North (and East).

Though it would be better if Oblivion would have been like that, since we probably won't go back to Cyrodiil anytime soon in a TES game. But it would still be nice if in the lore it would go back to a rain forest (and hopefully some of mine suggestions too).