WEll, I think we should be able to play orcs if we want...but....



TOTALLY agree. Orcs are supposed to be brute, very uncivilized beings, and mostly they should be dwelling in camps, underground dwellings, and caves just like Goblins do. Orcs and goblins should also occasionally join forces. Very cunning (sometimes) but not necessarily very intelligent. If an orc inhabits a town alongside humans and elves, he/she would be constantly needing to prove worth for a long, long time. Acceptance could happen, but it would take time. Seeing orcs (and lizard men) own bookstores and comfortable houses all over Cyrodiil really annoys me...sorry. :shrug:

I mean, yes TES is not LOTR. But I'd personally just prefer the traditional orc brutes in the next game (with perhaps just a few exceptions to this rule), instead of dozens of mildly rude, finely-dressed orcs. I know it's not gonna happen that way, though.

Well given recent evidence suggests neolithic man sometimes shared communities with and interbred with neanderthals (see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/biology_evolution/article6888874.ece) I'm not sure what your point is there.

I think you're not only overestimating the intensity of the antipathy towards Orcs in Tamriel but also how widespread it would be. So far as I can make out the Orcish population is mainly in High Rock and Skyrim so Bretons and nords would have reason to traditionally dislike them. They're ancient enemies of the Dunmer but so is almost everybody. Altmer would despise them as impure. I can't imagine why others would particularly dislike Orcs. They've got more local enemies to hate.

Someone has been reading anti-ORSIMER propaganda.

EDIT: Amazon Queen, actually, the orsimer's traditional enemies have been the bretons and the redguards. The nords have, more or less, left them alone, or got a few to tag along in raids. Also, Tiber Septim HATED orcs.

Lets see Bretons, Nords, High Elves, Dark Elves, thats half the races right there, so imperials, wood elves, redgaurds, and khajjit would be fine with them but the other half of town would hate them, so half the town likes, half the town dislikes, that would still mean they couldnt travel very freely through the streets for fear of being attacked by that half of the town

What? Redguards are one of the biggest enemies of the Orcs, aren't they? Orcs where invading Hgih Rock/Hammerfall during Daggerfall.

The two biggest enemies to the orsimer ARE the bretons and redguard. Hell, the bretons AND the redguard actually joined forces multiple times just to beat the crap out of orcs for the kicks and giggles of it. Also, Tiber Septim HATED orcs.

Nords don't really care, they just like to attack anything near them. Though, nords have employed orcs as soldiers on a few invasions and raiding parties, probably because they're tough and like to fight. They're also good as a shield wall, considering orcs are the only race (in OB at least) with +block.

Dunmer probably don't like them, but they don't really like anyone outside their borders, even themselves.

Altmer see them corrupted, as they're not perfect like them (har!).

Everyone else probably doesn't care.

Oops, got it wrong about who the Orcs worst enemies are :blush:

Still doesn't mean they couldn't travel the streets safely. If a free Nord or Argonian can travel the streets of a Dunmer town safely then an Orc could in a Redguard or Breton settlement. A large part of that might be due to the presence of the Imperial Watch/ Legion on every street corner so it might in theory be different in TES V but since thats going to be in the future they might well be even more assimilated

There's not going to be an Imperial guard on every corner of every city. Especially in the slums. And there might be 2 or 0 stationed in the small villages.

Plus, Argonians and Nords were never wilderness monsters.

I know that if goblins assimilated, it would be at least a generation of living separately before they start moving out of their caves and into the cities.

40 years and orcs are already walking around in noble's attire, speaking perfect Tamrielic as if they'd always been part of the empire. Not realistic.

Maybe not realisticly but judging by the games the Imperial legion/Watch must've been Uriel Septim's attempt at ensuring full employment. Tamriel is defnitely a society with law and order. Discrimination against orcs, last to get served, no beds at this inn for you etc I can see but lynch mobs for walking down the street as you seem to be supporting no



Ask any Dunmer and he'll tell you Argonians are just animals



After the events of Daggerfall orcs start being recruited to the legion. With 20 years service they retire with a decent payoff and pension, buy businesses and start families, usually in the area their unit was stationed. Now 40 years on their children are advlts.



1 Orc in Oblivion wore nobles attire that I can recall and none of them in MW or Oblivion spoke perfect Tamrielic (although by the time of the next game there should be some who do). Anybody can buy fine clothes but an orc who did so would be a figure of mockery like the 1 in Oblivion is.

I remember broken English in Caldera, everywhere else, in 3 and 4, I remember hearing perfect grammar from every orc.

As for the other stuff. You're right, that's how it happened in the lore. But it doesn't suspend my disbelief. No way a big, green pointy-toothed monster is gonna blend in after centuries of bashing in the skulls of Tamriel-folk.

Yes there are orcs who grew up in the empire, but it's unrealistic. Because any orc who starts a family in a human or mer settlement 20 years after the warp in the west is insane. It's one thing to have your family move in with you to the legion fort (the towns around legion forts in history were reserved to the soldiers and those who served the soldiers), but to be walking down the street in an Imperial city?

Nope. Just look at New York city in the 1800's. And the immigrants the New Yorkers lynched looked just like them. The orcs would stand no chance. And as if some legion soldier would risk his neck, breaking up an angry racist mob just to help some smelly orc. The legionaries are gonna look the other way. Even if they'd fought side by side with an orc in the past. Meeting one or two honorable orcs doesn't do much to quell one's distaste in an entire race, in general. Especially when that hate has been conditioned into one's head since childhood.

Hate is a much more powerful emotion than you or the writers at bethesda give it credit for.

As for the Dunmer opinion on Argonians: ask any Imperial if he gives a crap what the Dunmer think. The rest of Tamriel views the Dunmer as depraved, violent perverts. If the Dunmer hate the Argonians, then the Argonians must not be so bad.

Then again, I could see a mob of angry Colovians beating an Argonian to death because they mistook him for a lizard man.

I thought you didn't like real world comparisions

And yet the immigrants continued to move to New York and their descendents live next door to descendents of the people who tried to lynch them. And the people of Tamriel are much more cosmopolitan than we are. They're used to people who look very different to them. You're wrong about what the Legion soldier would do IMO. If hes fought besides orcs and an orc needs help and he thinks the orc was a former legionary he'll help the orc. Soldiers always think better of former comrades than civilians in my experience. The Watch might be another matter. Never seen an Orc in the Watch and since the Watch live amongst the general populace they're likely to share more of their prejudices.

Orcs were never wilderness dwelling savages by choice, the 2 Orsinium's show that. Crude imitations of human cities they might've been but still when they had the chance they chose to build and live in cities.



Even in places that are a byword for ethnic tension like Jerusalem or Bosnia people of different races manage to live together without conflict most of the time. When law and order breaks down then things can get very nasty very quickly but if there is law and order and its committed to keeping the peace most people tend to keep their feelings in check and get on with their lives.



The point I was making is that despite their old hatreds the Dunmer and Argonian don't attack each other on the streets.

:facepalm: Did you actually play morrowind? Did you not see how the Argonians and Khajiit were treated? That may be the most http://9gag.com/photo/6114_540.jpg argument I've ever seen.

Facepalms and memes don't make your argument stronger

Did you?
If so you should remember the many Dunmer who said this, that most Argonians and khajiit were slaves, and that Dunmer bemoaned the fact that they were forced to treat free Khajiit as citizens, claiming this meant there were Khajiit thieves everywhere.

What? :huh:

Meh he's just jealous that Orcs are so sixy

Getting back on track, if any of the entities of the Elder scrolls should remain "unplayable", then it should be the Daedra. Though I enjoy having a character to walk around thanks to Westly and co, for off the shelf games, keep the Daedra as something we can only play modded.

Also, the "40 year" arguement isn't that far of a stretch. If continually using the real world incidents as the basis for comparision, it took less time than that for an entire generation of the children who were snatched from reservations, tribes, and so forth, to have their hair cut, culture obliterated, and beaten for speaking their native tongues to end up having some of them not getting wholly angry at those who did it, but the obtuse, ending up finding flaw and fault with their own birth culture and fully assimilating the other. This has happened both here, and on the Emerald Isle. Took less than 40 years, and I remember mission schools.

It is not as if the Orcs that are non-barbaric were plentiful. They weren't really. It is not as if you came to a town in the game that was Orc owned, orc fashioned, and Orc flavored, with signs in Orsimer. Just a few here and there really trying hard to either "fit in", or just trying to get by.

:shrug: OK, I give up, I'm not psychic. You're going to have to tell me what I've said that you disagree with and why if I'm to make any sense of your comments.

Also well said Eirik.

It's simple. you've said that the Dunmer treat the Argonians like animals. That's completely invalid to the argument, as Argonians are more accepted by most than the Orcs, yet they're treated even worse in Morrowind. You are, if anything, simply strengthening my point that there needs to be more racism in the games.

As I can understand it:

Her argument-- The Dunmer treat the Argonians like crap and think that they're nothing more than beasts. Despite that attitude, many of them are able to thrive in Morrowind due to the strength of the Imperial Legion enforcing peace, and they begrudgingly live side by side. The same is basically true for the Orcs.

Your argument-- How could you think the Argonians were treated badly? Did you SEE how badly the Argonians were treated? Facepalm!

Are you sure that you're the god of the hunt, Hircine? Not, maybe, the god of pointless bickering on the Internet?

You are pretty negative all the time, Hircine.

How about...

Her argument-- Racism should never be introduced into TES, it's awful! did you see the racism towards Argonians in Morrowind? It was great!

My argument-- Orcs should be the victims of racism and hatred throughout the empire. It has worked so well in past games, and using the Argonian's treatment in Morrowind is completely irrelevant.

See how that works either way?

I'm simply stating that Orcs should be hated, at least for a few games more, throughout the empire, and they should retain thier "brutish" ways. Perhaps only to a certain extent, but they shouldn't be nobles, or book store owners or anything like that. Perhaps once or twice. they also need a revamp on thier voices. In Oblivion, they just sounded too... Nice. They didn't sound like a cursed race, at all.

The point is, is that the empire has already accepted them as part of it (the empire). This leads the newest generation of Orcs to become civil and not not barbarians. The Orcs were brutish in the times before the Elder Scrolls games took place.

That wasn't the point that I was making. I was pointing out that although Dunmer regard Khajiit and Argonians as animals they still have to treat free Beast Folk as people. They might like to treat them worse but Imperial law prevents them from doing so. I've said all along that there should be more prejudice between the races, I've just objected to those who've tried to single out Orcs when there are many racial tensions in TES which differ from race to race and place to place, and to those who think an Orc would be likely to be attacked walking down the street in broad daylight.

My argument was never that there should be no racism in TES.

Read more carefully!

Oh my God, you're horrible.

You don't have to remind me how much sixier orcs are than me. And my point is valid, I don't care. :meh:

EDIT: 200 wooooooo :ahhh: