I only have made one such pathc, a http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=25346, which I called delayer and not patch, btw. But as long as the patch only patches an existing script in the master mod, the patch will be mergeable in the Bashed patch, and therefore not take up additional slots. But of course, having more immersive ways of starting quests is even better to have in the main mod.

Anyone that would need to worry about "a precious esp slot" is likely to be using Wrye BASH.
All of my delayers are mergable into a Bashed Patch (except for one of my first patches).
Since that first release, every patch I've released is mergable as only an existing script or quest in a mod is changed slightly.
Thereby negating the need to worry about that esp slot.

If I cannot find a script or quest to modify, I don't make the patch.
AdenseEpicDungeon is a perfect example. That mod places a lot of new objects, so it can't be delayed immersively without doing a major rewrite.

As to "compatibility code", that would require the author to release an update.
This is not necessarily difficult or problematic, but what if the author is done with modding?
Paul 'Simyaz' Thomson is a perfect example. His 'Tears of the Fiend' mod is one of the top quest mods.
Granted, he approved TheNiceOne's delayer, but what if the patch wasn't written before he stopped modding?
The only course is to create and release a delayer patch.

TheNiceOne: I also call my mods "delayers". That is how I have them on the Nexus.
But they are still 'patches', no matter what we choose to call them.


Edit: Reply to TheNiceOne.

/flameshield

Most modders are pissy little whiners, go ahead and release your patches. Frankly I think there should be no stipulations to using other peoples work.

But then what do I know, nobody wants to use my stuff in the 1st place.

If you're creating an ESP which is dependant on someone else's ESP (i.e. a patch, typically) then there is no need to make contact with the creator of the original mod, unless you want to ask them to insert something into their mod to make your patch work better. Their mod is their mod, your patch is your patch - it's not like you're taking anything they've created and releasing it as your own. You are merely tweaking their creation slightly while still requiring that users of your patch also use the original mod in question.

If you were to take their ESP, edit it, and release it, that would be a different matter - permission would be required from the original author either by way of the licensing found in the mod's readme, or direct contact with the modder (depending upon whether the licensing already gives permission or not).

But this isn't what you're doing, so you just go right ahead and create these quest-delaying patches and share them, you don't need anyone's approval or permission, there is nothing unethical or wrong about what you are doing.

I wonder if you have any idea what kind of damage an attitude like this can do.



Fortunately the law disagrees with you.

Could not resist chiming in given that the main mod I have written comprises patches (ie my ESPs are dependent on a master ESP) for loads of other mods. I thought that meant I could go ahead without getting express permission, except that my very first mod release resulted in a request to withdraw one of my patches, which I did.

Since then, I have always sent a PM to ask permission before releasing the patch. If I don't hear from the author within a reasonably short period of time, I release the patch and caveat my credit with "Awaiting Author's permission confirmation".

I think it is courteous to ask and, in return, I expect the courtesy of a reasonably prompt response.

Maybe its cause you call other people pissy little whiners'. Just a thought.

I think it is polite to ask people first.

Yeah. As if attitudes like that hasn't driven enough modders into retirement/seclusion..

Some problems that may arise,

1. The original modder may be having a new release of the mod. MMM, Cobl, etc
2. The patch mod can cause confusion as some mods have various patches set aside, Cobl for mmm, coble for fcom, etc.


I myself am waiting for some mods that will be released soon, have kept in contact with the authors because of these very same reasons. if I hadn't asked for consent, even though they dont change the original mods data, but uses it,

my mod would have been messed up because of
1. possible editor id changes and the like,
2. possible that items that would be changed or taken out, quest changes

so even if the consent isn't for changes to the mod such as a delayer, its still a good idea for these reasons

One does become overprotective with mods one does make.
There is allot of screaming when making mods, fist shaking against the sky and such.... or is it just me?
Anyway, one's skin might become somewhat thin when someone else touches what you became hoarse for days for.
Then again, people kill each other for less. I don't think much of humanity but I can usually get a good repertoire going with most people.
Releasing mods is really something that should only be done by people who can distance themselves from the crap flying around internet (and the world in general). Just think about all the Gankers that exits in MMO's; I've heard they're okay people but I wonder....

Point of this thread is patches which do not "touch" the original creation. Also, the rest of your comments are pretty hyperbolic and melodramatic.

My opinion: You don't have to ask permission to make the kind of delayer mods you are making. But, I agree that calling them something other than "patches" might stave off the unintentional offense-giving.

gothemasticator

Then nexus would only have one or two mods on it.

Modders might want to put in their readme's whether or not the license is open, or if permission is requested, not all modders do this.

It would help prevent some of this

Double post....

:ahhh:

I would be very unhappy.

It doesn't matter that you didn't directly edit my mod, but that you did something that altered it without asking me none the less. I have a reason behind absolutely everything I do with my mods, including when they can be started.

You haven't messed with one of mine (to my knowledge), just saying, I wouldn't be very pleased, even if the answer would be yes had you asked in the first place. In fact, if the answer would have been yes had you asked, the answer would be no if you asked only after doing it anyways.

Now, there is nothing I could do to stop you from making such a patch, but it seems you are asking about the feelings of individual modders, not what is technically possible.

So for what it's worth, there you have it.

@Adrius,

I wonder what you think about people using other mods that affect changes upon your mods? People apply MOBS stat changes, they replace armor textures, they add custom races, they add dialogue to NPCs... All sorts of mods affect changes on other mods.

I fail to see the difference here. But, like I have said, I agree with the idea of not calling it a patch, since that carries the possible connotation of "fixing" something in the original mod.

gothemasticator

I think the conclusion is that most modders would at the very least like to know when you're making a patch/addon/tweak, 'delayer mod' or whatever it's going to be called. Most people won't mind as long as they know about it. If the modder just happens to stumble upon the patch/addon/tweak, they may wonder why nobody bothered to tell him that it was made.


'Quest delaying addon' sounds good to me.

They can do it, I just want to be asked first. People going over my head, or behind my back, or however you want to put it and altering my creation without my consent is not a prospect that makes me happy.

People make unreleased personal mods all the time, where a person with at least some modding skill will alter what they download on their end for their own personal use. I have no issues with that, but if someone wants to release an alteration of my work, I want to know, and I would like them to respect my wishes if I tell them no.

This is really an interesting discussion, and I could ask this question too.
I have altered one mod without knowing of any Community background, it was Better Cities - Imperial City.esp.
As result I apologized a thousand times, because I didnt know, that a few dozen people still workin on this mod,
dindt like my idea of free mod alteration.
But they were friendly and said they will take over one or to of the changes I made.

Today, after learning some of the modding community stuff & background, I understand this reaction better,
though I must say, all "official" mods, should be known to those who like them, that the only place to be downloaded
is from the original spot. point.
Its just natural other mods or modders will try to improve the existing ones, and thats a good thing to me,
but you I do always have the choice what mod i want to use.
Just to say, behind all intentions for a similiar mod there only can be the purpose of flaming the author of the original mod,
isnt always right. what about any interest in modding and using own skills, though they might be not appreciated at all...

my second attempt was then to get rid of loads of mods that bugged me, like MRE, TFE, and others,
all relating to game mechanics somehow, but not compatible to each other. (i posted a few topics with no to moderate reaction)
I decided to take my time and get all this mechanics together, in a simple & better way than the original mods,
I had luck and achieved my goal with EGM.

but never as I was asking for help or support from the original modders, I got any response!
If writing mods is just to have them put up, and sit on them, claiming to be the original mind,
this doesnt make sense for me. If you mention THAT you took something from another mod in order to improve it, is just right, you point that out.
But it isnt forbidden not to, nor does it break any rules of good behavior!

those who use the mod have to decide what they like. and they should know that and stop being so naive about. a short reminder is enough.
IF this wasnt intended by BETH, they would have implemented an encryption feature.
Weird that modders dedicated to a CRPG that doesnt offer teamplay in vanilla, but as mod, arent able to cope.

As soon as I put my mod up, in order to share it to others on BF, who might have been annoyed by the same bugs,
strange comments is all what i got, and not a single 'cool', 'thx', or 'how about...?' Some ironic comments. (gladly some exceptions were...)
I wont do another attempt at modding, and I am not disappointed by curious people using my stuff, for whatever reasons,
but others being so selfish, not answering bout their mods, thinking mine is THE original and mastermind a.r.s.e.
they should know, there is only ONE emperor! and Oblivion is dedicated to be evolved!

all I can say is, go on!

I got a feeling this topic is going to push more modders away -.-.

As for my thoughts on the matter.. I say, just ask for permission. The likely hood of being turned down is low, I would think.

now I know I am invincible!

Asking for permission is common courtesy. You are, after all, altering someone else's work and you are releasing such alteration to the general public.

I think that, when asked, most modders would gladly say yes. I know that if I were a modder, I'd be somehow proud that my work is being altered by someone. It means that someone is using it and deem it important enough to deserve a patch. That is cool. B)

Your comment makes very unlikely that one of your mods would need a delayer.
My delayers are made only for mods that do not consider when it starts.
These are made simply to avoid the pop-up quest box at a start of a new game.
And as I have already stated, I intend on letting mod authors know before hand in the future.
If someone is not on board, I will not release my add-on.


edit: mistakenly clicked post reply instead of preview - had to finish my reply.

OP requested close.