Hey everyone. Welcome to the Theory Discussion: Brotherhood of Steel Edition! In case you don't know what a "Theory Discussion" is, I'll tell you a brief tale:

The "Theory Discussion", in it's older form, was referred to as a "Theory Fighter" thread. It originated in the fighting game genre, as a way for players to better understand their chosen character, and connect with him/her, as well as learn his/her weaknesses. Now, I have modified the original foundation of this thread to fit the Fallout Universe, so we may, in turn, connect with the factions and people of the Fallout World. We will go over many things in these threads, canon and non-canon, all in the purpose of understanding WHY said person did WHAT at WHAT TIME, so we can have a greater understanding, and therefore, appreciation, of Fallout.
We begin this series of discussions with the most widespread faction in the Fallout games, the Brotherhood of Steel. "Why the Brotherhood?", you ask? Well, they are the most widespread faction, and include many different divisions. They have many divisions, and each division is different. They have appeared in every single Fallout game to date (correct me if I'm wrong). So, let's begin.

General guidelines to discuss your theories and thoughts:

• Keep an open mind to other people's ideas
  
• Keep your posts respectful of others
  
• Try not to go too off topic
  
• Venture outside of canon sources, think on your own, for yourself. This thread is not to prove who is the smartest, or who knows everything, but to discover things as a community

Here's some things to kick off the discussion. You can either agree with these statements, or argue against them, but try to make a good point in your argument, don't just say "You're wrong because I'm right!"

I'll start:
The Mojave Chapter of The BoS
-> If they do not evolve and expand, they will die off
-> After enough time has passed, they will come out of the bunker
-> If the BoS does not exit the bunker soon, the NCR/Legion will eventually locate them and kill them off
-> Despite their belief in staying in a small group, if the BoS does not look outwards for breeding options, they will eventually run out of mates (The ratio that you can see in the BoS of Men to women is approximately 3:1, men)
-> Due to the BoS' nature of being secretive and keeping to themselves, they will never become the threat they want to be, and will never form a complete society.

Please discuss these points, contradict them and agree with them, just make it a good, fun argument. Thanks, and good luck :celebration:

1- True but it would contradict their beliefs if they did. I'm not shutting down the idea but saying that they usually feel very strongly about their beliefs.

2- Possibly. If Independant or House is canon and they
then most likely. House or NCR they'd be slaughtered.

3- Again depending on the canon controllers of the Mojave Wasteland.

4- I had thought the ratio more around 5:1. I'm not posivitve.

5- That's true. i find it kind of amusing that the two factions that strayed from the BoS beliefs (The MWBoS and the CWBoS) ended up being substantiully powerful. During my Independant playthrough of Vegas I was imagining the MCBoS becoming elite soldiers and having a community in Hidden Valley.

This is true, but (and I quote Jared Diamond here, from "Collapse: Why Societies choose to fail or succeed"): "It turns out that some societies often fail even to attempt to solve a problem once it has been perceived. Many of the reasons for such failure fall under the heading of "rational behavior", arising from clashes of interest between people." An example of this is the Mojave's BoS Elder, who knows the problems (The air recycler breaking down, his people becoming restless, the declining population), but he refuses to solve them, because of "rational behavior". He was taught all his life to stay hidden, but the only way to solve problems is to venture outdoors. Eventually, the society would collapse, forcing people to move outside.



This is true as well, but I think the Legion would eventually find them, even if it was due to sheer size of the Legion's army, and the fact that they burn and pillage EVERYTHING, and I don't think they'd miss a single bunker in Hidden Valley.


You might be right about this, but either statistic is frightening.




Exactly, and that's all it would take, would be exiting their bunker and staying in and around Hidden Valley. They could easily develop a thriving community withing Hidden Valley, and would last much longer. This way, they could easily keep an eye on the surrounding area, possibly send more and more troops out to scout/fight people, gather some technology from the nearby highway, and some other things. They might eventually take over Black Mountain, which would be a huge boost to their society.

It's only a small chapter of the BoS as a whole. They where never huge to begin with. The original members as you may know are disendents from a group of deserters and there families at Marapoisa military base. IIRC don't the BoS have a "state" in the NCR? *Maybe thats from VB*

The state was created before the NCR and BoS were at war, it was mentioned in Fallout 2 as one of the 5 NCR states. It's not really a Brotherhood state; their original bunker (Lost Hills) is located in it, so the NCR called the lands around it Maxson.
I'm assuming this is where most of the large battles in the NCR-BoS war took place, excluding other locations like HELIOS, or the sabotaging of the NCR gold reserves.

So, more than likely, the BoS privilege in this area was revoked when the war started? So this means that they have no 'official' home, per say. They're pretty much just wandering nomads until they find an area they like, and then they hide forever? Without a main body of land to call their own, more than likely the BoS will fade away over time, since they cannot constantly communicate.

No one has any opinions on this?

I have an opninion, the BoS will most likely fade into fairy tales as the boogey men in the NCR at this rate but the MWBoS and the CWBoS will probably expand and become countries. The Fallout series probably (hopefully) won't end until almost all of the US and Canada are civilized. Nuclear war would take a huge tull on the world in almost every way (especially how screwed up history will be).

That is true, yes. However even if they tried to find a main body of land to call there own, how long would it be before one of the MAJOR factions stepped in and decides that it is there land?

Truth be told, unless all the opposition is wiped out for them, they will die off. It's a fact.

I think alot of people agree if the Mojave Chapter does not change they will fall. They don't want to change, they cling to the old ways.

We don't know the size of the Brotherhood back in the West. If the State of Maxson has fallen. New Vegas does not make any mention of the war back west.

Brotherhood has had people change before. The first group to want change was the Midwestern Brotherhood. They wanted the Brotherhood to let in new blood. The elders could not agree on this and it was spiltting the brotherhood. Even before the events of Fallout 2 some in the brotherhood saw the writing on the wall. "Must change in order to keep going." So the Elders sent the dissenters on a mission (some predicted would fail) to follow super mutant amries moving east by airship.
The air convoy did run into a storm as some predicted. They found themselves cut off from the main brotherhood. They were free to run things their way.

The greatest Brotherhood mystery/question for me is "what happened to the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel" Tactics takes place 45 years before Fallout 2. What caused "the hard times" mentioned in Fallout 3?

I am sure by now many have seen my theory on the Barnaky Ending to Fallout Tactics :fallout:

I agree that they need to expand and let people in, even if that is against their code or whatever it is. The human race requires at least 500 genetically different individuals to last longer than around 2000 years. If the number is much lower in breeding will destroy the genetic variation and begin to kill us off.

However they shouldn't just let people in for the hell of it, they should scout for any remaining vaults and try and enlist the help of the inhabitants first, than move onto the small settlements and so on. In fact if it comes to it they could just force a few powder gangs or something to join up.

If they don't change soon they will be gone before you know it, the CWBOS and MWBOS are the only ones that got the right idea. I <3 all branches of the Brotherhood though!

THERE WILL BE A SPOILER IN THIS TO SOME. After alot of messing around with the nv endings and going back and forth as an all star diplomat I got the NCR to take the bos help at the dam against CL. The bos elder states " We already gave up Helios to them and we have no interest in the dam. Tell Moore we will send people to the dam. They r in no position to refuse." Moore dosent like it, but goes along with it. In the slide show at the end the bos makes an agreement with NCR that NCR gives bos all salvaged pa and in return the bos patrols trade routes and helps NCR with any threats. So in one of the many endings bos and NCR are one big happy family. That is the canon problem with nv. Is the ncr still there?? Is bos dead?? Is House dead???? Who controls his securitrons????? All these really important canon questions can t be answered so how is fo nv canon at all? I have a CL player and there may even be a CL ending where they win. IDK but if so Obsidian worked nv right out of canon. Too many endings

For all bos to thrive all they have to do is follow thier original bos to pledge here is some of it.... "We will survive the end of civilisation." "We will take responsibility for our actions." We will hold accountable the actions of others." We will stand back to back with those who share our convictions and beliefs." "We r steel we r hard we have been sharpened to an edge." Now that if they follow it like Lyons Bos or tne mw bos in my games ending they can t fade away. The we will survive line.. I would venture to say that means by any means nessasary. The mw bos let me in Lyons bos let me in. They say they let outsiders in under extreme circumstances. I think they ll be good to go.

I haven't but I assume if Tactics did end in favor of the Barnaky Ending... well they should be an unstoppable force by now. I mean it has been 85 years.

I hate to tell you this but the "brotherhood pledge" you keep quoting is not canon. It goes against it and was cut from Fallout.

Uhmm, do you not understand. Thye will declare which endings are canon at a later date. Its not that all the endings are all happening.

This is not the Warp in the West and this is not The Elder Scrolls.

I agree they would have become an unstoppable force. They would have made contact with the BoS back West long ago.

My Theory as to what happened to the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel since the end of Fallout Tactics.

"I really hope the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2ZcpcO7C58 is canon. the story would be awesome. the Enclave in Chicago would be alot like the MWBoS that have started to form a fascist military dictatorship that goes from Chicago to Colorado but the Enclave would have had to change as well. Dispite the BoS acting alot like them they are still impure in the eyes of the Enclave but if the Enclave in the area were smart they could become allies with the bos.

Way I see it. the MWBoS fight a bloody war against the Super Mutants and then the Calculator. they force settlements to aid them by giving food, ammo and their best and brightest. Many people do join willingly but the BoS treat them as cannon fodder. the Elders let mutations join because they can be very useful in places humans can't due to radiation.

Vault Zero falls to the BoS and Barnaky becomes one with the Calculator. the BoS are happy to have General Barnaky back. There is a push to make him the head Elder of the MWBoS. the famed warrior (you) who is also a General backs the move to make Barnaky the new head elder. Which he does become.

He soon recalls all mutations from the BoS armies and orders them back to their home bases were they are disarmed and tagged, later to be sent to work camps. BoS stops letting mutations join. Laws are pased and any mutation within the BoS' territory is to be rounded up and also sent to camps. (work/death camps) Which is the start of the great betrayal.

Elders that were most against Barnaky becoming head elder are removed from power. Soon purges happen with in the BoS, anyone that was against Barnaky or seen to aid mutations are also sent to the camps. Entire settlement get put to the flame. Soon the Mutant Liberation army forms. BoS caravans and outpost get hit. Work camps are liberated. the BoS see a dramatic fall in people willing to join the BoS. they start having desertions.

Human numbers are replaced more an more by calculator robots and more purges follow fearing an inside job. the BoS stop trying to contact the West in order to get their own house in order.

Biggest blow happens when rouge BoS members set off several bombs within Vault Zero in a failed coup d'état. Many of the calculators systems are damged beyond repair. Barnaky lives but finds has less control over the robotic forces. He can't control them all at once and the ability to make more robots is severely hampered.

Mutant Liberation Army makes allies with whats left of the reaver movement and are supplied with EMP weapons. the remaining slaver/raider groups once again become stronge and prey on BoS settlements and outposts.

Decades of bloody Guerrilla warfare against the MLA and the predation of other factions (slavers, raiders) have driven the MWBoS back to their remaining strongholds such as Vault Zero and Cities in between Colorado and Chicago.

Lyons and his BoS are sent out to make contact but don't really know where they are, they know the MWBoS went East. they took a path that takes them away from the MWBoS strongholds at Vault Zero and the others in the Midwest. As Lyons gets closer to DC he hears rumors of people that have similar tech and a simbol are in the area. Lyon spends along time hunting down those rumors. MWBoS fearing that Lyons is just the tip of a larger army coming up from the south west, do what they can to not be found by them.

Lyons is persistent and soon the MWBoS send out a group of their own elders to make contact. they tell Lyons that MWBoS are just a few hundred men and women close to Chicago. Lyons having made contact goes on to the more imprtaint mission of heading to DC.

Like the Barnaky ending states its a war the Mutant Liberation Army is distended to lose. MWBoS have seen bitter defeat after bitter defeat for generations and are now a shadow of their glory days but time is on their side. Mutations can't reproduce and the ones that don't fall to the BoS will be taken care of by father time. the humans and fellow bos memebers that sided with the MLA grow tired of fighting. Seeing as how they have crippled the MWBoS and liberated much of their territory. they just want to settle and farm, the threat is all but gone (so they think). After generations of war the younger generations don't take up the fight.

Maybe the MWBoS will find an ally in Augustus Autumn and his advanced tech can help the MWBoS take back what they lost."

Anyone that wants to know the MWBoS POV watch this ==> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtXhuaTcohY."

Yep that's Styles for yah.

I agree with him.

I did not get that from wiki I got it from fo bible vol 2 or 3. I went to a link to the bible through wikl, but didn t use wikl. Bethesda says fo bible is canon. It may be on the terminal in the pentagon that tells the story of Maxon if fo3, but im not sure you d have to check on fo3. I don t have it anymore since moving from 360 to ps 3.

Urmmm I understand, but dont like people picking endings for me. Maybe u like someone pick which ones of the 5 or 6 drastically different endings to steal from you after you put hrs and hrs and hrs upon hrs into it, but I dont. I like choices but not ones that will have to be throw out anyway. I ve never played elder scrolls too magical dark ages stuff for me. I m really picky with games in my old age. They seemed to have lost something. They seem to be made for the lowest common denominator. I ve never heard of the other game you speak of, but if they have solid endings good for them. As always IMO

That's a pretty good theory I must admit.

Well they'll probably have to pick one ending later on in order to build off of it. The events in New Vegas are a big deal, so it would be strange to never hear about who won the second battle of Hoover Dam. Of course they could always keep who won ambiguous and just say that the NCR (or Caesar's Legion) eventually conquered the Dam and Vegas regardless of what the Courier chose; however that would cheapen the Courier's journey I think.

Indeed.