Maybe we could continue this discussion on a new thread. I actually think its rather interesting. and am actually hoping a modder who has actually made significant and truely innovative contributions to tes modding will share their thoughts on the matter. So far no one talking can put their mods where their mouth is and actually say they have done so. But I'm not familiar with you'r guys work so I dunno.

Moderator: No, there is no need for a separate topic, this one has caused enough problems.

You are really blowing this out of proportion demanding to see peoples work as if they have to have created major work of art for their voice to count. Plaigerism takes place on all levels, just because a modder is not a well known modder doesn't mean that their feelings on plaigerism dont count and doesnt mean plaigerism didnt take place. That is hurtful, rude attitude towards others.

I dont think a new thread would be good.

OK, there's a lot of raised voices in this thread and it's not good. People need to stay on topic and stop venting at each other. If you have something to contribute in answer to the ORIGINAL POST, by all means, post in this thread, but stay on topic and don't be mean to each other.

http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/you-make-bunny-cry.jpg

[TLDNR warning]:

I have a WIP thread for my TC which I maintain for a couple of reasons:

1. I want people to have a chance to give input on a mod before it goes live. I don't really believe that 'closed-door' development is the best way to go about many kinds of projects and a large project like a TC is one of them. I want to know what excites people about a mod, what features or content they would like to see, what kinds of things they're tired of seeing, whether or not they think the concept is original and how it can be improved, etc.

I don't see this as a conflict between art and 'commerce' (the sense that you're creating a 'product') because I know I still have all the control. I might like someone's idea, I might not. And if I think it stinks or it's just too difficult to implement, it won't make it into the mod.

2. I personally enjoy seeing the creative process at work. I peruse the ModDB every day, a whole site devoted to WIP threads that gets a gazillion hits a day, so obviously there is a lot of interest in this kind of thing. I keep a WIP thread here for the same reason: to give people who maybe don't use ModDB access to the same kind of creative 'entertainment'.

I also like to talk about the progress I might be making in tackling unusual challenges with the hope that others can learn from my own experience. I don't see any benefit at all in keeping 'secret recipes'; that just holds back the entire community. In any case, there is little to fear from other modders stealing your ideas: I gave frequent and lengthy encouragement to many modders to produce more custom creatures for the community and I have yet to see this happen with one notable exception (my apologies to anyone I may have missed). All of the problems related to custom creatures have essentially been solved for well over a year and I still see very little work being done in this area.

Ideas grow like weeds: everyone has them, usually far more than they could implement in a single lifetime, so I find it pointless to worry about 'owning' them. I routinely throw out ideas I would like to see implemented in other threads, hoping that other people will take up the challenge, ideas I would gladly implement myself if I had the time. That has never been an issue for me, so it's never been a concern with a WIP thread.

And as far as the 'what if I start a WIP thread and it never gets completed' thought goes I can only say: It is better to have modded and lost than to have never modded at all.

People are free to think whatever they like. Their opinions have never concerned me.

Modders with the skills are often busy with other stuff, and there are not many that have all the skills needed to create a custom creature. Sometimes a newer person will join and start making one (having previous modelling/animation skills), but the sheer amount of work to create a creature means they often give up before its finished.

Just remember, to make a creature you need to know how to:
Make Animations (And there are always heaps on animations to make)
Make a Skeleton <- (I still havent learnt this)
Make the creature model
Understand how the oblivion engine makes a creature work

But new creatures are still being made, just the other day i saw a Sload in action for the first time.

On topic, I will make more effort to say things encouraging in wips. Modders need it.



I am just glad I dont mod and not that any of my mods would have amounted to much, I never felt my morrowind mods were special enough to release, but I am glad I found out the communty attitude towards modders before I started to make oblivion mods in case I did want to release any. After this for me modding will be about personal goals and personal learning acheivements andmy work is best kept to myself. It is clear this attitude that not even your ideas are your own and the modder doesnt even deserve the right to credit for their ideas, also extend to your mods and they arent your own and everything belongs to the community or else. Conform or else, jus seems that way. Not a very friendly enviroment and not one that helps creativity, but rather one that seems to revolve around intimidation and eliteness, please I dont mean offense to anyone. Maybe it works for you all and thats cool for you, but not for me. I need an environment where my acheivements are recognised and not immediately passed off as someone elses or some movies or some whatevers idea originally. Where if I come up with something original to my mod and something I am proud of that that acheivement is acknowledged, not belittled. I dont need adoration, just some encouragment and credit for my hard work.

No offense to anyone at all, this is jsut the impression I have got as a new oblivion modder. Good luck in your modding and have a nice day.

It boils down to experience and temperament. No one is saying that people shouldn't be given credit for their ideas and work, only that it doesn't do to worry about it too much.

People who work hard and do good work will always garner credit and respect in spite of the predations of others. Does anyone honestly believe that SaidenStorm, TalkieToaster, Wrye, and dozens of other notable modders are suffering from a lack of street cred? (Seriously, someone argue this point. ) I have seen a hundred of my own ideas duplicated by others over the years, not because they copied my work, but because many people tend to have the same ideas around the same time. You see this all the time in movies, music, writing, etc. Some of this may be outright plagiarism, but 90% of it (at least) is people having similar experiences at similar times in response to experiencing similar sources of inspiration. This is just the way creativity works in a culture where new ideas and works of art are available almost immediately to everyone.

It's almost impossible to ascribe blame to anyone in this kind of environment, so it's pointless (in my mind) to worry about it; and you really only need to worry about whether or not people are stealing your ideas if you have the mistaken belief that you might run out of them. (I can't possibly give away all of my ideas, so if anyone is looking to 'plagiarize' me I'd be happy to assist them. ) No one here is making any money off of their work, so if someone 'steals' your idea just move on to the next one. Being 'jealous' about your work is a sure-fire way to attract needless suffering. (If you don't believe me, ask any of the modders who are concerned about this. There is much gnashing of teeth in certain quarters, I assure you. )

I am all for encouraging new modders and complimenting them on their drive, initiative, talent, and originality and there is absolutely 0 reason (again, in my mind) for anyone to be concerned at all about this issue. Do you work, squeeze your ideas for all they're worth and have faith in yourself. You think Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Mozart, da Vinci, etc., didn't have plagiarists and imitaters? Does anyone remember them? Do your work and trust the process and time and creativity will take care of the details.

Another thing I am enjoying about my current wip, oddly, is that no one replies in it. So its like a wip blog, more or less, rather than a discussion thread. Its nice to have a place to go back and get an overview of my progress. and see the evolution of my progress, and the ideas I tossed around(at myself) and decided to go with in the end. My notes in my text files are notes. where as the thread I am talking to the 3rd person. its a whole different thing.

DaMage- I thought the sload wasn't a custom creature. just a new mesh?

I want to say(even though it's completely off topic )- In your fields, TheMagician and DaMage are what I call modders. good work, experience in their fields, good attitudes, never full of themselves, and importantly always helpful on the forums, sharing the knowledge they posses.

if I was qualified to bestow the status of Modder Knight, you'd both have it. :yes:

for the record i'm usually generous with my credits. and give it up to people who inspired me, as well where I learnt how something is done. Basically in my field Saiden or XMarkstheSpot. :foodndrink:

The mesh work an rigging on it are pretty amazing, it might use some pre-exsisting animations, but its hard to tell just by looking at it.




Its the whole, be nice or dont say anything at all...and a modder would sure prefer a topic with posts like that rather then an empty one.


Quite frankly, stealling ideas is often done subconiously (eg you read something, thne a few days later you think you've had an idea), and most of the time you'll look at a mod, but you'll have too many of your own ideas to have time to copy someone elses anyway.

Guys continuing this chat about taking ideas etc is really derailing the point of this thread. :unsure:

I want to apologize. I made a very basic comment in response to Filly's very innocent tongue in cheek comment because I have had things usurped from my thread. Not in my head, I have seen these people in my thread and shortly after me posting a screen or some video, this stuff is remade and on Nexus for the masses. It's disheartening as a WIP modder that something I did and was proud of is now second hat and that's a view ON TOPIC that I was sharing as a WIPz modder. But it was just a comment guys. It's not like I called anyone in this thread a thief and I'm never said anything about modders rights, my point was about courtesy. Yes, folks swiping ideas is common place, so is burping in public, both are rude in my opinion that was my one and only point. My experiences have never stopped me from sharing what I know with others nor has it jaded me into taking my project and packing it in. :blush:

As a result of a simple comment, this whole thread has spiraled, everyone diving in to defend what they think is the right and mighty way and I apologize to the OP for this happening. I posted a second time only to try and better explain MY particular experiences. In return I've had snarky jabs taken at me, people questioning my right to speak here as if my making a comment about something I genuinely experienced is unwelcome. My words have been twisted so that people are accusing me of being paranoid, greedy, and more (nothing further from the truth). I have paid my dues in this community but I owe it to no one to post my modding resume and I shouldn't have to defend myself from personal attacks in what should be a civil conversation. :nope:

So, I am editing my previous posts, I apologize to anyone who took some affront to my comment, and I hope you will all just abide peace on this other issue and let this thread stay on topic now.

SORRY MODS!! i', gonna be a [censored] and post off topic.

I did try to pm you man and maybe sort it out and be cool. but ya blocked me.

imo experience we may end up crossing paths again, perhaps working together, and I like to sqaush this kinda stuff. only leads black clouds and colors and future interactions. I honestly think we are all one the same page at the end of the day. < guru seams to think you are rightly pissed about being ripped off one

I am at least equally to blame. I confess to an overfondness for strong debate. :blush: My apologies to the OP.

My apologies, also, to anyone who may have felt my comments were motivated by churlishness or malice. Darkrder: your contributions to the community are well known and greatly appreciated. Many of us are in your debt. My sincerest apologies if my comments were interpreted in a contentious manner. I am simply concerned that new modders may hesitate to share their work if they don't feel it is safe to do so. I only want to reassure them that for every idea that is plucked unceremoniously from the bed of creativity, ten more will shoot up in their place vigorous, radiant and full of health.

@Ghogiel: The honor is gracious, but there is a long line of modders ahead of me who are more deserving still. I am content to wait in line.

Without further ado, I will now relieve you of my wordy posts!

You should start a WIP thread once you have something to show and are on a roll, posting news every other day. Starting an thread with an idea and nothing to show for is a big risk, especially for a novice. It also depends on your skill set. I could post a new thread everyday about modeling new stuff, and never get ripped off, why? Cause the modders with the skills to copy, respect each other, and thats awesome.

I do often lurk in the threads, and offer my support if I like the idea, but I don't tend to offer critique and suggestions as much as I did a while ago. It's disheartening to type critique and suggestions only for the modder to quit a week later.

Wait, nobody responded to my joke?