Mages Guild: Hypocrites

Post » Tue May 17, 2011 7:00 am

Heyas

Now I don't know too much about the lore of the TES games, but there was always something that I found odd, especially in oblivion
I'm hoping someone with more knowledge would be able to shed some light on this.

In oblivion, the mages guild is very much against the use of necromancy, and that is shown very much in the mages guild quest line.
HOWEVER... :) Why is it that the mages guild makes necromancy based spells available for purchase? Is this just a really big oversight on Beth's part, or is there more to this?
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Roberta Obrien
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 3:29 pm

This book will answer most of your questions: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Black_Arts_On_Trial
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Camden Unglesbee
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:01 am

And something from the Forum Scholar's Guild:


The School of Necromancy is notorious for its ill reputation throughout Tamriel. The Dunmer in particular who practice ancestor worship despise necromancy, even though they themselves summon the souls of their dead. But they are strict, only raising ancestral souls, and the raising of the dead by an outlander is blasphemy at best.

Near the end of the Third Era, Necromancy ?which was once simply ignored by the Mage's Guild- was officially banned by Hannibal Traven. The prosecution of Necromancers that followed has been received with mixed emotions, and many Mage's Guild supporters, Mage Council members, and mages within the Guild abandoned the Guild as a result. What happened thereafter was an outright war amongst mages, resulting in Hannibal Traven's death and the supposed destruction of Mannimarco, King of Worms, by the Arch-mage's successor.

Necromancy is still banned, and even before its banishment from the Schools of magic it was a despised art, a Black Art. This text will not go into detail as to the spells within this perverted School, but instead seek to explain how it is not like Conjuration, its accused cousin.

True, Conjurers summon undead beings, but their method is not the same as a Necromancer. What little could be gleamed from the more legal texts show that a Necromancer must exercise extreme patience as they prepare the corpses, and elaborate rituals must be used to imbue a dead spirit within the body and bend it to the Necromancer's will. In Conjuration, the summoned Undead has no soul: the will of the summoner is the soul of the summoned. But in Necromancy, it would appear that souls are forced into servitude of the necromancer, and the body's rotting processes are stopped. Conjuration does no such things, and therefore does not defile the dead to the extent of Necromancy.

The writer has never personally dabbled into this School in any extent, so does not know exactly how accurate these statements are. They have been gleamed from a few easy to obtain texts for research purposes that were later handed over to the Mage's Guild for containment. The texts hinted, however, at other uses for the School outside of raising dead. Further research was impossible.

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Invasion's
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 11:40 am

Indeed as said, Necromancy is nothing that we really know much how it works yet, since the undead beings isn't "commanded/forced" but merly summoned creatures (Conjuration).
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Travis
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:28 am

X'tyfe,

Excepting in game limitations or developer oversight, which is, in my opinion, a poor excuse, I believe the answer lies in the nature of the spell. Necromancy revolves around finding a corpse, preserving it through unnatural means, and binding it to the master necromancer. Summons, which I infer are the "necromancy based" spells of which you speak, however recall a body for a limited amount of time, after which it is allowed to return to rest. Summons likewise involve no attempt to circumvent Arkay's rights.

It is also important to remember, at least in my mind, that not all of the Mages Guild was opposed to necromancy. Many scholars had no outright problem with it and, while not accepting it as a valid school of magick, viewed it as a science. It is only with Traven's ascension to the head of the Guild that necromancy became illegal.
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Hearts
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 3:31 pm

I see, so there is a fine line between summoning and necromancy. Makes sense now, glad that it really is part of the lore instead of a developer oversight.
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Emily abigail Villarreal
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:51 pm

It's rather like the difference between the other end of Conjuration and dealing directly with Daedra. The Conjurer brings a daedra to this world for a limited time. The daedra worshiper seeks to bring the daedra in for an indefinite time. The processes, are, I imagine, quite different.
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Kaley X
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 6:13 am

It's rather like the difference between the other end of Conjuration and dealing directly with Daedra. The Conjurer brings a daedra to this world for a limited time. The daedra worshiper seeks to bring the daedra in for an indefinite time. The processes, are, I imagine, quite different.

There was a book in Morrowind that mentioned this. Apparently there are large, involved rituals for long-term daedric summoning. Can't remember the name of it, though.
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Raymond J. Ramirez
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 3:40 am

There was a book in Morrowind that mentioned this. Apparently there are large, involved rituals for long-term daedric summoning. Can't remember the name of it, though.

Darkest Darkness, strange that books in the game describe things that are not in the game, like the summoned servants rebelling, and hurting their own owners.
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Kelsey Hall
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 12:56 pm

Multiplayer and Dragons isn't in the Game either but they're still talked about by a certain Liar. :)
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Pixie
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:45 pm

A lot of lore stuff dosen't appear. "response to Bero's speech" or somesuch is one prime example of some awesome stuff we can't do in-game. That's why Lore is fun.
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pinar
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 2:50 pm

Just finished reading The Black Arts On Trial, and i have a question.

Could the arrest attemp on Magister Ulliceta gra-Kogg have been Traven?s way of getting rid of anyone who wouldn?t share his opinion on the necromancy subject or was gra-Kogg really a hardcoe necromancer?

Don?t hold back any speculation, kids
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Brittany Abner
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 10:36 am

Just finished reading The Black Arts On Trial, and i have a question.

Could the arrest attemp on Magister Ulliceta gra-Kogg have been Traven?s way of getting rid of anyone who wouldn?t share his opinion on the necromancy subject or was gra-Kogg really a hardcoe necromancer?

Don?t hold back any speculation, kids

I personally believe it is because Traven was trying to censor him.
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Krystal Wilson
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 7:45 am

A lot of lore stuff dosen't appear. "response to Bero's speech" or somesuch is one prime example of some awesome stuff we can't do in-game. That's why Lore is fun.

Not if it should be in the game, it's OK with hige battles and dragons and stuff like that, but books describe magic that is not possible in the game, and that svcks(I think that "Response to Bero's Speech" describes destruction spells, and how their powers, another example from there: spells that are targeted at a place to go off at a certain time/when someone gets close)
Stuff like that is stupid.
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OJY
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 3:42 am

There was a book in Morrowind that mentioned this. Apparently there are large, involved rituals for long-term daedric summoning. Can't remember the name of it, though.


Apparently even the Temple uses this method, as they have an entire legion of Dremora serving in various pilgrimages and temples across the island.

Which begs the question: when the White Gold Tower fell and the Oblivion Gates started a'openin' in Morrowind, did the Temple Dremora fight dutifully next to their Dunmer summoners, or turn coat? How powerful a hold does this Temple Magic have over the actions of intelligent beings like Dremora?
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Wayne W
 
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Post » Tue May 17, 2011 4:11 am

Apparently even the Temple uses this method, as they have an entire legion of Dremora serving in various pilgrimages and temples across the island.

Which begs the question: when the White Gold Tower fell and the Oblivion Gates started a'openin' in Morrowind, did the Temple Dremora fight dutifully next to their Dunmer summoners, or turn coat? How powerful a hold does this Temple Magic have over the actions of intelligent beings like Dremora?

I thought I read that the summoning magic made it excruciatingly painful to ignore a summoners order. Maybe that doesn't apply to long term summons. But in Oblivion, you can summon a markynaz, and they will happily attack other dremora, so perhaps the temple dremra stayed loyal.
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Jade MacSpade
 
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