I don't understand what you're trying to say.


Actually, I'm trying to come up with an explanation that agrees with all sources and the events of the Oblivion. In my opinion, simply understating the power of an old lich who has been through hell (literally) for gameplay purposes is more likely than having a divine avatar with all the power of a goblin chieftain at lvl 30 that never mentions its own heavenly status. I'm apologizing for Oblivion- you should be happy.

Well, it seems that given the Necromancer's Moon, it seems Mannimarco's ascension wasn't completely undone by the Jills. And given that he's able to be up there orbiting Arkay while being down here leading the Order of the Worm personally, it seems that he's two places at once, hence the use of an avatar.

It also seems like the Necromancers Moon... just makes soul gems. Hence the Jills' actions, which severed the sentient lich from the rather rude store of power siphoned from Numidium.

I dont know about Talos - but Vivec was being or pretending to be a Demi-God and not a God - big difference - and as far as I could see Vivec's feet never actually touched the ground while he lived so maybe he was not on Nirn

In any case it does seen to be generally accepted that Manimarco became a God and that the hero kills his avatar ... and I would think that a herd of Jills (note the plural there) is a pretty potent force so how does any of this reduce the substance/essence of Manimarco at his peak? After all the thread is about who was the most powerful magic user and not about whether anyone became a God ... but I suspect that you both agree that Manimarco did become a God once the details are left out.

On the other hand if Manimarco created a moon without being a God then that is totally potent magic and he has to be a top contender.

The lore says that the jills succeeded. I'm just reading the words here. Mannimarco didn't create a moon with his magic wand, he became a moon, and Akatosh shot him down again.


If Mannimarco is an avatar and not a lich then where the hell is the high priest of maggots?


And won't he just show up next Wednesday and finish what the invader from planet X started?

Gaenor? xD

I think Nu-Hatta was out of the loop on the present. All he has are ancestor moths afterall.

That's fine by me - creating or becoming a moon is still potent stuff - magical either way = what we are looking at here.

Does anything state that he becomes a Moon or a God first? That would nail it down for this thread.

Or, he was split into two people.

Yea, but those soul gems are really horcruxes for Mannimarco. He's just biding his time awaiting the duckie... I mean, undead, revolution.

:turtle:

lol

That split into two people made me think of Dagoth Ur for some reason

Most gods are a physical sphere (planet) and an entity. I rather think he became a mini Daedric Prince (so both at the same time) until Akatosh fixed it so there was just a big dumb moon.

:o small secretive moon purlease

Unless he was forceably separated from his divinity, which coalesced into the necromancer's moon. As a side effect of the massive amount of power, he still had the ability to appear as a living altmer. Or something like that.

In other words, Mannimarco is on Nirn, mortal (or at least semi-mortal), and more powerful than ever, while his divinity or godhood is supended in the air, just out of his reach. We can debate exactly how powerful mannimarco truly is when you meet in him game all day long. Truth is, depending on your character and what you have the difficulty slider set on, he can be tough or easy. GAME PLAY MECHANICS!!!! Want a true representation of how tough he actually is? Try going on the cave without having Traven's help. Then we'll see what's up.

You back yet? Turned you into a worm thrall, didn't he? Yep. Quit bragging, then. You didn't defeat him on your other game. Traven did. You just couldn't see it because you were too busy taking credit for what the previous archmage just did. j/k

A thought just occurred to me - does Magus count? After all, wasn't he Aedra and aren't they Mortal?

I have thought about that too. And he could after all be considered one of the mightiest Mages of all time.

That's one of the interesting things about this question - because Aedra are both mortal and Gods ... might make you wonder what they all are and if at some point they were truly different?

Almost you might say that the Daedra are the only real Gods because they are truly unkillable and immortal - 'killing' one is more an intemission than a state-change and he just comes back as himself in his own plane.

Divayth Fyr is probably the most powerful mortal.
Sotha Sil is probably the most powerful of all

Divayth Fyr is something of an enigma - he does not appear to be one for monumental deeds - he is advisory to the Elder Council I believe and possibly a Psyjiic ... he collects powerful artifacts and has failed to find a way to cure ordinary people of coprus - and me - what he did was to mute the negative effects of the disease (apparently with a little help from a Daedric Prince and/or a prophesy) in such a way that I was left with some of the positive effects - and he did not really know if the potion would actually work. I suspect therefore you just like him, which is cool, so do I - but ...

Sotha Sil is dead - killed by his 'friend' Almalexia ... and I do not understand him. He was supposed to be a Psyjiic and yet it appears that he betrayed the leader and war-master of his people and friend Nerevar to death before going on to tap the power of a God's Heart using the tools of a Dwemer who was apparently responsible for the destruction of his entire race.

You will note that it was Kagrenac who created the tools and the methodology ... Sotha-Sil just used them and made an enemy of A daedric Prince who had been an ally up to that point.

Even then Kagrenac's tools did not make him and his pals into gods - they were merely demi-gods 'addicted' to and wholly dependant on stolen power.

Sotha-Sil then used that power to create things. Much of what he did was with the help of Vivec and Almalexia - but by that time he was no longer truly mortal. And much of the rest was clearly based on the work of others - the Dwemer he had helped drive to despair and extinction. He wasnot my idea of great and 'his power' was stolen from others far greater than he.

You could claim Kagrenac is the most powerful mage, he did afterall somehow manage to kill/move/transcend/vapourise/remove an entire race (minus exception).

Although really I'd be inclined to say Magnus, if he's still alive as an individual, because he's not only the 'God' of magic, but also he left and went to LIVE in magic.

I wouldn't really say that Kagrenac really made the whole race of Dwemer to ascend to godhood but more that it was a either miscalculation or somekind of wrath either before it was supposed to happen or when it happened.

I'm gonna' have to agree with whoever said Magnus. Yeah, I know. The most powerful mage being Magick? It even feels like I'm copping out of the debate, but there it is. Magnus.

I think Chimere Graegyn deserves an honorable mention.
Tal Marog Ker's Researches, link via Imperial Library.
http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/talmarogkers.shtml

Splendid answer, if I may say so.